439 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 88-1886-CIV (Hoeveler) 3 4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) 5 Plaintiff, ) v. ) 6 ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) 7 DISTRICT, et al., ) Defendants. ) 8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x 9 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 10 February 5, 1991 9:05 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. 11 12 13 CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF RONALD DEAN JONES 14 15 16 17 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, 18 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public, 19 pursuant to Subpoena issued in the above cause. 20 - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 440 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF 4 OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 5 155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 600 Miami, Florida 33130 6 BY: SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, Assistant United States Attorney 7 8 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT 9 SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM 10 1440 New York Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005-2107 11 BY: JERRY JACKSON, ESQ. JOHN A. AMODEO, ESQ. 12 13 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION 14 ROBERT G. GOUGH, ESQ. 15 Assistant General Counsel Twin Towers Office Building 16 2600 Blairstone Road Tallahassee, Florida 32301 17 18 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS CITY OF BELLE GLADE AND CITY OF CLEWISTON 19 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK 20 One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636 Two South Biscayne Boulevard 21 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: DOUGLAS M. WYCKOFF, ESQ. 22 23 24 25 441 1 2 PRESENT: _______ 3 J. WENDELL GILLIAM JIM GRACE 4 PAUL LARSEN DAVID R. SWIFT 5 VIVIAN DIAZ 6 INDEX Witness Direct 7 RONALD DEAN JONES By Mr. Jackson: 442 8 9 EXHIBITS 10 NUMBER (RJ) PAGE 23 442 11 24 446 25 451 12 26 455 27 457 13 28 460 29 463 14 30 465 31 467 15 32 471 33 473 16 34 474 35 476 17 36 479 37 485 18 38 488 39 489 19 40 491 20 (MS) 14 481 21 22 23 24 25 442 1 RONALD JONES, resumed. 2 THE COURT REPORTER: I remind you, you are 3 still under oath, Dr. Jones. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 6 BY MR. JACKSON: 7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Jones. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. At the end of the second day of this 10 deposition you were kind enough to go through our 11 copy of the documents in from your office and 12 selected some documents that had data and other types 13 of information on them. I would like to go through 14 some of those documents with you and ask you if you 15 can describe them for us so we can get them in the 16 record too as well. 17 MR. JACKSON: I propose we just continue 18 numbering them with the prefix RJ and start at the 19 next number which should be RJ 23, unless they have 20 been introduced in previous depositions. 21 So I would like to ask the court reporter 22 to mark this next document as RJ 23, please, and show 23 it to the witness. 24 (Exhibit RJ 23 was marked for 25 identification) 443 1 (Pause) 2 Q. Dr. Jones, I believe this document may 3 relate to a couple of other documents that are 4 already exhibits and to me they seem to relate to 17 5 and 16. 6 A. Yes. I was looking for RJ 16. I believe 7 that this document here, RJ 23, is the most complete 8 graphic of the data set represented in RJ 16. It has 9 all of the points where I had single point values 10 incorporated into it. 11 I believe the previous exhibit, RJ 17, did 12 not include the points where I had only single values 13 for the alkaline phosphatase. 14 Q. What does it mean, what do you mean by the 15 phrase single point values? 16 A. Well, if you look at RJ 16 and you go down 17 the column that is labeled AP, alkaline phosphatase, 18 you see that there are several points where I have in 19 parentheses where it is indicated written single 20 point, where it indicates one of the replicates was 21 off. And I did not include those on RJ 17 in the 22 phosphatase line but I did in this line. 23 Q. What does it mean for one of the 24 replicates to be off? 25 A. Very often when we are doing this in the 444 1 laboratory, you will collect bottles of these things 2 out in the field and when you bring it back to the 3 laboratory and put it into the instrument sometimes 4 you will have a sample that contained more than, an 5 anomalous sampling, you collected a sampling and 6 sucked in some algae or something like that and have 7 a value very high or very low, it doesn't fit into 8 the thing. 9 Since I was doing duplicate since it says 10 single point duplicate bottles here, that would mean 11 there was one bottle outside of what I would have 12 expected to be normal for that range, either very 13 very high reading or low reading. For some reason it 14 was discarded. 15 Q. And I just noticed on RJ 16, I think I 16 forgot to ask you about a couple of values that are 17 listed on RJ 16. That is in the second column. It 18 looks like it says AP Canal E and AP Canal W, do you 19 see where I am referring to? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Can you tell me what those two numbers 22 mean? 23 A. That is the alkaline phosphatase in the 24 canal in the eastern boundary and alkaline 25 phosphatase in the canal in the western boundary and 445 1 those would be the values for the canal water. 2 Q. And these were the values that you 3 reported in your declaration in paragraphs 18 and 19. 4 I believe your declaration is RJ 1, the last sentence 5 of 18. 6 A. I do not believe that is correct. I have 7 done alkaline phosphatase in the canals at other 8 times, collected water out there, and if I am not 9 mistaken this was from a data set collected at a 10 later date. I am not entirely certain about that. 11 Q. When you say this, are you referring to 12 the numbers that you report in RJ 1 or in RJ 16? 13 A. In RJ 16, I think those were collected at 14 a later date. I have done prior to the numbers 15 reported in RJ 16, prior to this I had done, just 16 where I had done the canal water alone. 17 Q. With respect to the RJ 17, which if I 18 understood your testimony correctly omits the single 19 point alkaline phosphatase activity measurements. 20 (Pause) 21 A. Yes, I believe that's correct. We have to 22 go back and look and compare the distances listed 23 over here on KM on RJ 16 with those distances that 24 are missing in the comparison. My understanding is 25 that is essentially what the only difference would 446 1 be. 2 Q. And the data points primarily seem to be 3 missing between the 7 kilometer and, say, the 11 4 kilometer point on RJ 17 and the 15 kilometer and, 5 say, the 22 kilometer point, you have just drawn a 6 straight line to connect those two points. What I am 7 getting at, it doesn't make any difference with 8 respect to your conclusions about this alkaline 9 phosphatase data that those points are omitted from 10 RJ 17? 11 A. That is essentially, I would agree with 12 that. 13 If you look at the points that are omitted 14 on this figure you will see that they really -- 15 obviously it is not a straight line in between them 16 but it is not a significant peak or valley in any of 17 those places. 18 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 19 would like to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 20 24. 21 (Exhibit RJ 24 was marked for 22 identification) 23 (Pause) 24 A. I know what these values -- I mean, this 25 is a total phosphorus. It says Loxahatchee samples 447 1 10-17-90 total PO4. I would assume these are the 2 values from the water column but I don't think this 3 is a complete set of data from that date. And I 4 don't really recognize what it is right offhand. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q. What about this indicates this is not a 7 complete set of data from this date? 8 A. I have 23, 24, 25, 26 in the sample ID 9 numbers here, and it seems to me that those probably 10 would have been the station numbers indicating that 11 we've got starting at station 23 going on through 12 station 35 plus the canal water, but not the first 23 13 stations or first 22 stations. 14 Q. And the station numbers that you are 15 referring to are reflected on RJ 16? 16 A. I don't believe so. I can't tie this with 17 RJ 16. 18 Q. Just that there are not 22 stations, 1 19 through 22, listed on RJ 24, is that what you are 20 saying? 21 A. Yes. This doesn't appear to be a complete 22 data set here and I don't understand why it wouldn't 23 be. 24 A. The only thing I can think, when you were 25 stapling this together, since it had a sequence 448 1 number of 1 through whatever here, that this is not 2 complete. 3 Q. I believe you just performed some 4 calculations on a calculator with respect to this 5 document. Could you tell me what you calculated? 6 A. I just converted the values in micromolar 7 to parts per billion so I could get an idea of what 8 this was. Sometimes that helps me to. 9 Q. Which values are the micromolar values on 10 RJ 24? 11 A. The column labeled Calculated Value and 12 then our numbers where we have averaged those in, the 13 first example would be an average of 4, which is .32. 14 Q. What was the calculation that you had 15 performed for .32 to make a conversion? 16 A. Multiply it by 31 and it gives you parts 17 per billion. 18 Q. Given that this may be incomplete, did you 19 say that you are able to recognize what sampling 20 event this reflects? 21 A. I don't believe -- I read off what it says 22 on the top and I would have to say that represents 23 what it is. I believe this would be total phosphorus 24 in the water column but I'm not entirely certain on 25 that. It has to be total phosphorus in the water 449 1 column. 2 Q. Is this your handwriting at the top of RJ 3 24? 4 A. No, it is not. 5 Q. And you assume this is from the Refuge 6 because of the LOX at the top? 7 A. Yes, and because of the bottom where it 8 says Canal E, samples 108, starting at 108 and 9 samples starting at 113 say Canal E and Canal W and 10 that would have been indicative of Loxahatchee, in 11 addition the number of samples that, having 35 12 stations, that would be the only place that I ever 13 did that. 14 Q. For sample ID 24, the first value -- the 15 first -- maybe we should use the numbers in the 16 left-hand column. What do the numbers in the 17 left-hand column mean, can you tell, the far 18 left-hand column? 19 A. Starting, the number? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Where it says number, that is simply a 22 sequence number, which peak. 23 Q. Using the sequence No. 21, if you go all 24 the way across to the right, the concentration is 25 stricken through 0 point, looks like 12. Do you know 450 1 why that is stricken through? 2 A. It was a bad sample. 3 Q. How can you tell that, because the number 4 is so different? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So it is what would be called an out liar? 7 A. It was an out liar, yes. 8 Q. Did you make that decision to strike 9 through that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was a statistical analysis performed? 12 A. No. 13 Q. At the end of the document there are some 14 numbers, intercept zero correlation, CO E F and 15 linear CO E F. Do you know what that means 16 A. Yes I do. 17 Q. Could you explain that to me, please? 18 A. That indicates that a line that was drawn 19 in the data for calculating the standard curve had an 20 inter September of zero, that its correlation 21 coefficient, R value was .9935, et cetera, and if you 22 took the linear coefficient as one of the 23 coefficients in the line saying that, I believe, if 24 you use 269.25 and divide that into the peak height, 25 that that would give you a value of 1. 451 1 But I would have to go back and do that 2 calculation just to besure. 3 Q. Where is the peak height on this document? 4 A. It is the fifth column from the left and 5 it is labeled Height. 6 Q. Labeled Height? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 9 hand you another document which will be labeled RJ 25 10 and ask you if you can identify this document. 11 (Exhibit RJ 25 was marked for 12 identification) 13 (Pause) 14 A. I believe these are the Loxahatchee 15 transect samples that are represented in RJ 16 as a 16 compilation. 17 BY MR. JACKSON: 18 Q. Can you tell whether or not the date at 19 the top, it says August 9, 1989, is that the date on 20 which the samples were collected, do you know? 21 A. I don't know. I doubt that, but it could 22 be. It is more likely to represent the date that the 23 analyzer was operating. 24 Q. And I take it on RJ 25 the far right-hand 25 column that is printed on this document that is 452 1 labeled PO4 concentration is, is that parts per 2 million of total phosphorus in the soil sediments? 3 A. It is listed as micrograms of phosphorus 4 per gram which I believe converts to parts per 5 million. 6 Q. And the sample sites in the far left-hand 7 column on RJ 25, how do these correspond to the 8 station numbers that are listed in RJ 16? 9 A. I believe that they are the same, they 10 would be the number following the dash, L2-1 would 11 represent station 1, I believe on RJ 16. 12 Q. So the L2 in the sample site column is 13 just a prefix? 14 A. It stands for Loxahatchee second transect. 15 Q. There are apparently six samples taken at 16 station 1 according to RJ 25, is that correct? 17 A. I have eight -- station 2-1. 18 Q. You have eight? 19 A. I have eight, there is also two 1S 20 samples. 21 Q. What are the 1S samples? 22 A. I believe, if you remember when we 23 described these things last week or whenever, that I 24 had described S versus E sampling locations and these 25 would be the same notation here, except for that I 453 1 don't think we put Es -- in other words, we didn't go 2 1E, it was just 1 nothing, then 1S and sometimes that 3 designation was used. 4 Q. The S was sawgrass? 5 A. Yes. And the ones without anything would 6 have been the open areas. 7 Q. Is this your handwriting next to the far 8 right-hand column, these numbers? 9 A. In the brackets and everything? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I believe it is. 12 Q. What are these numbers written in this 13 hand next to the brackets? 14 A. That would be the averages for the 15 brackets. 16 Q. So it looks like you or someone averaged 17 the first six station 1 sites or the station 1 18 Eleocharis or open water sites, is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And you arrived at an average of 1898, 21 from those numbers? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And you or someone else averaged the two 24 sawgrass sites and got 2863 for those? 25 A. The two S sites, I don't know if I want to 454 1 call those sawgrass at that point. 2 Q. Okay, the two S sites. 3 How did the two numbers 1898 and 2863 lead 4 to what appears to be the final number to the far 5 right of 2380? 6 A. I believe that they are both averaged 7 together. This was after a discussion with Doren to 8 decide on how he was going to separate the sites out 9 both tangentially, if you will, and we decided to 10 combine them at that point and give them one value. 11 Q. And that would also be true for the number 12 1435 which seems to correspond to station 2? 13 A. I would assume so. I would have to go 14 back and divide the numbers. 15 Q. Then on the second page of RJ 25, some 16 different numbers are appearing now in the right, 17 what is now the far right-hand column for station 6, 18 it looks to me it says CA 1-14 and then I guess the 19 subscript of an O or a zero. Do you see what I am 20 talking about on the second page? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you tell me what that means? 23 A. Yes, I can. 24 Q. They are? 25 A. They are Bob Doren's designation for what 455 1 he was calling the sites for the purposes of his 2 analyses. I did not use them in any fashion, I just 3 wrote them down so that when he called me up and 4 asked me for what the value was at that particular 5 point, I could give it to him. 6 Q. Then on the last page of RJ 25 for station 7 31, one of the total phosphorus concentration values 8 is stricken through again. Would this be another one 9 of the outlyers that we discussed before? 10 A. Yes, I believe it is. 11 Q. I am going to hand you another document 12 which I am going to ask the court reporter to mark as 13 RJ 26 and ask if you can identify it. 14 (Exhibit RJ 26 was marked for 15 identification) 16 (Pause) 17 A. I believe this represents the last set of 18 samples that are represented on RJ 25 and all of the 19 samples that were -- that I conducted on the transect 20 north of L2, if you will, in Loxahatchee. 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q. It appears to me that RJ 26 is a 23 continuation of RJ 25. 24 A. Yes, that is correct. 25 Q. And it says at the top of the first page 456 1 of RJ 26 Lox 2 and Lox 1 Everglades Samples. 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. And Lox 1 is what we have been calling the 4 northern transects in the Refuge? 5 A. It would appear so. 6 Q. Otherwise this is the same type of 7 document that we discussed in RJ 25, the values are 8 similarly collected, being the same things? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I realize the numbers are different but 11 just a continuation? 12 A. Just a continuation. 13 Q. Could you look at the last page of RJ 26, 14 please. Sample sites stop using numbers and now 15 there are a number of sample sites labeled LVS and a 16 number labeled looks like CLVS. Can you tell me what 17 those are? 18 A. Yes, those are the standards that we run, 19 one of them would be the National Bureau of Standards 20 orchard leaves and the other one would be, I am not 21 real sure whether it is sawgrass or pond apple, 22 leaves that we collected and that we routinely run to 23 check up on the efficiency of the technique. 24 Q. I am sorry, you are analyzing leaves to 25 check up on the efficiency of the technique for 457 1 analyzing soil? 2 A. The standard for total phosphorus has been 3 designated by the National Bureau of Standards to be 4 orchard leaves. I don't know for sure what they are 5 using for their leaves now but that is just 6 designated as being the standard for total 7 phosphorus. 8 Q. You compared this standard with the 9 results you get from the soil samples to determine 10 whether or not your equipment is performing 11 accurately? 12 A. No, we use these values to compare with 13 the values we got from the National Bureau of 14 Standards to determine whether we get the same values 15 as they have. 16 Q. Does it have anything to do with 17 calibrating your equipment? 18 A. No. 19 MR. JACKSON: I am going to ask the court 20 reporter to mark and hand you a document to be 21 labeled as RJ 27. 22 (Exhibit RJ 27 was marked for 23 identification) 24 (Pause) 25 BY MR. JACKSON: 458 1 Q. I ask you if you can identify this. 2 A. I recognize what it is. This represents 3 total nitrogen and carbon analysis of I believe soils 4 collected along the, I believe the Everglades 5 National Park transect that we have been designating 6 as south of S-12C, but I am not entirely certain of 7 that. 8 Q. The far right-hand column that is printed 9 on RJ 27 is headed Total C, is that correct? Do you 10 see where I am? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what is the unit of measure of total C 13 that is reported here? 14 A. I believe that's milligrams of carbon per 15 gram. 16 Q. Then next to it in handwriting someone has 17 put a dash with an X beneath it to head the next 18 column. Do you know what that means? 19 A. It is the symbol or mean, X bar. 20 Q. The numbers below that symbol, do you know 21 what those are? 22 A. I believe they would be the average of the 23 two samples designated by the bracket or the 24 triangle. 25 Q. For carbon in milligrams per gram? 459 1 A. I believe that's correct. 2 Q. In the far right hand handwritten column, 3 can you tell what that heading is, what appears to be 4 a heading? 5 A. I believe it says Micrograms Phosphorus 6 Per Gram of Carbon. 7 Q. And that's what the numbers would be below 8 that symbol on this document? 9 A. Here. 10 Q. 306 would be micrograms of phosphorus per 11 gram of carbon? 12 A. I am not entirely certain of that. It 13 might be micrograms of phosphorus divided by gram of 14 carbon, it might be the ratio -- we would have to 15 look at the values to see how they were derived. 16 Q. What was the purpose for collecting this 17 data? 18 A. To look at the carbon and nitrogen content 19 in the soils, I think. 20 Q. Why were you interested in looking at 21 that? 22 A. Just to get a rough idea of what the 23 carbon and nitrogen content in the soils were. 24 Q. If you could look at the third page of 25 this document, please. I realize it is not numbered. 460 1 Sample site No. 3S, the milligrams of phosphorus 2 slash grams of carbon value is 3425 and it has an 3 asterisk next to it, do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know why that number has an 6 asterisk next to it? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. What about the fourth page, there is a 9 line that has been drawn between the sample site 16S 10 and sample site 17S. Do you know why that line is 11 there? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 A. That may not be a line. These sheets may 14 have been -- that may have represented where there 15 was a break in the paper on the printer and we stuck 16 two sheets together, I don't know. 17 Q. To you it has no significance? 18 A. No. I don't know what it is. 19 Q. I am going to hand you a document and ask 20 the court reporter to mark it as RJ 28 and ask you if 21 you can identify it. 22 (Exhibit RJ 28 was marked for 23 identification) 24 (Pause) 25 A. I believe this represents the carbon and 461 1 nitrogen data from the plant samples that are 2 partially represented in RJ 20. 3 Q. What are the numbers at the top where it 4 says Blank Areas CO NO and then underneath 1, 2, 3, 4 5 and then sort of a separate type of columns that 6 don't quite correspond with the rest of it, can you 7 explain what that is? 8 A. This entire area? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Those are the numbers put into the 11 spreadsheet to form a standard curve, if you will or 12 standard calculation to calculate the values of total 13 nitrogen and total carbon. I believe those are the 14 standards we use for Atropine. 15 Q. Where do those numbers come from, how are 16 they derived? 17 A. Which numbers? 18 Q. The ones you just described. 19 A. There are several types of numbers up 20 here. 21 The numbers after standard Atropine 22 percent nitrogen, percent carbon, those are fixed 23 values for that particular compound for Atropine. 24 The blank areas are determined as to what 25 a sample blank is, if you take the tin cup and burn 462 1 it alone in the machine, what it gave you as a peak 2 height, was zero for this. 3 And then in the columns labeled on the far 4 left it says 1, 2, 3, 4, there is a column that says 5 dry weight in micrograms, that would be the weight of 6 the individual sample and then there would be the 7 areas for the nitrogen and carbon and the columns 8 labeled KN, KC and average KN and average KC would be 9 calculations from those numbers. 10 Q. On the second page of this document that 11 has been marked as RJ 28, and you referred to the 12 exhibit that already has been marked as RJ 20, on RJ 13 20 there seems to be a sort of legend, if you will, 14 that explains what the numbers in the sample site 15 column mean. It shows that the sample site, sample 16 number and bag number are labeled in the sample site 17 column on RJ 20, is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would that same explanation seem to apply 20 to the second, third and fourth page of RJ 28? 21 A. I believe it does. These were again not 22 samples that were collected by me or for me. This 23 was an analysis that I had provided to the Park 24 botanist Sternberg, I believe. 25 Q. You just performed these samplings in your 463 1 laboratory and provided the numbers to the Park, is 2 that correct? 3 A. I performed the analyses in my laboratory. 4 They performed the sampling. 5 Q. Do you know why they performed the 6 sampling? 7 A. I would have to go back. Generally it was 8 a sampling of different species of plants. I don't 9 even know what was contained in the bags now without 10 having the key, if you will, in front of me. 11 Q. And by that you mean what species of plant 12 was contained in the bag? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 15 will ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 29. 16 (Exhibit RJ 29 was marked for 17 identification) 18 BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q. I ask you if you can identify it. 20 (Pause) 21 A. I believe this would be a portion of that 22 key that I just explained. 23 Q. Which key? 24 A. The one on RJ 20. Sorry. 25 Q. Are these your notes? 464 1 A. No, they are not. 2 Q. Do you know whose they are? 3 A. I would assume that they are John 4 Sternberg's, the name at the top of the page, but I 5 don't know. 6 Q. And it is possible you are guessing that 7 the site numbers that are reported on RJ 29 would 8 correspond to the site numbers that are listed on RJ 9 20 and RJ 28? 10 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 11 question. 12 A. I believe that that is a correct 13 assumption, I am not speculating on that. 14 Q. Do you know when these samples were taken, 15 these tissue samples? 16 A. Sometime prior to the 26th of January 17 1989, I would assume. 18 Q. And these species that are listed on RJ 19 29, do you recognize the common names for the 20 species? 21 A. Some of them. 22 Q. Do you recognize what the common name is 23 for, looks likes cladium jamaicanse? 24 A. That's sawgrass. 25 Q. That is sawgrass. 465 1 And then the Typho Latifolia? 2 A. That is cattail. 3 Q. I am going to hand the court reporter a 4 document and ask him to mark it as RJ 30 and hand it 5 to you and ask you if you can identify it. 6 (Exhibit RJ 30 was marked for 7 identification) 8 (Pause) 9 A. Offhand, I don't recognize this. 10 BY MR. JACKSON: 11 Q. Can you identify what any of the 12 information is that is reported on this document? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 14 A. Yes, I can, certain portions of it. 15 Some of the labeling in the sample site 16 makes some sense. This may be water samples, again I 17 have to go and convert it from Water Conservation 18 Area 2A total phosphorus. 19 (Pause) 20 A. These very well may represent water 21 samples collected along the Water Conservation Area 22 2A transect listed on RJ 3. 23 Q. So for example, the sample site S-10D may 24 refer to that structure? 25 A. I don't know that there is S-10D on here, 466 1 S-10Y. 2 Q. S-10C? 3 A. Yes, that would be my assumption. 4 Q. Did you take these water samples, do you 5 know? 6 A. Yes, I would have collected them. 7 Q. And analyzed them in your lab? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you mentioned a conversion, I take it 10 that was with respect to the far right-hand column? 11 A. Yes, that's why I am having trouble 12 recognizing these. I am getting so used to talking 13 about this in parts per billion I am having trouble 14 of going back to my standard notion of micromolar. 15 Q. So that was the one we referred to at the 16 beginning of this morning? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 18 Q. Where you multiplied it by 31? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Would it be safe to assume that the sample 21 site labeled 2A-11 would be at the far end of the 22 transect in Water Conservation Area 2A that is 23 indicated in Exhibit RJ 3? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 25 question. 467 1 A. I would have to see the rest of the data 2 that goes with that to be sure about that but I would 3 think that that would be very close to the end or at 4 least 11 sites in from S-10C. 5 Q. What I am trying to get at is whether or 6 not it is possible that this transect water sampling 7 event contains additional sample sites that are 8 further south along the transect than the 2A-11 site. 9 A. I can't tell from looking at this. 10 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 11 hand you the next document and mark it as RJ 31. 12 I ask you if you can identify it. 13 (Exhibit RJ 31 was marked for 14 identification) 15 (Pause) 16 A. I believe this represents data from 17 analyses performed when Dan Scheidt and I originally 18 drove down to the area around the S-12s and walked 19 into Everglades National Park and collected some 20 samples along the canal and out into the marsh at 21 that time. 22 BY MR. JACKSON: 23 Q. Would this be the reconnaisance transect 24 for S-12C? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 468 1 question. 2 A. I don't believe that that's what we were 3 referring to as the reconnaissance transect. 4 Q. Would this have been before the 5 reconnaissance transect was run? 6 A. It would have been around the same time, I 7 believe. 8 Q. What is being sampled here, the soil? 9 A. I think that depends on the analyses you 10 are looking at. 11 Page 3 of RJ 31 would probably represent 12 soil samples, carbon and nitrogen content, and the 13 last page, which is labeled total phosphorus in 14 sediments would represent soil samples, total 15 phosphorus. 16 Q. What about the first page, the reactive 17 phosphorus? 18 A. I believe that would be in the water. 19 Q. And can you identify the sample sites from 20 this document? 21 A. Roughly. 22 Q. Can you tell me what the sample site Can 23 is? 24 A. I believe that would be the Tamiami Canal, 25 but I am not sure about that. 469 1 Q. What about the site that is marked 20, I 2 can't tell what the symbol is between, and then SW? 3 Maybe that is an M? 4 A. It is meters but I don't know what -- I'm 5 not really sure what SW is designating. 6 Q. So if it means 20 meters from something 7 you don't know what it is 20 meters away from? 8 A. I assume it is 20 meters away from the 9 road or the edge of the willow zone but I am not 10 sure. 11 Q. What about the sample site that is marked 12 edge? 13 A. That would be the edge of the, wherever we 14 walked in, which I believe would probably be one of 15 the culverts, that that edge would designate the area 16 where the pond apple and willow broke into a more 17 open community for either cattails or sawgrass. 18 Q. Do you know in the next one, it says 150 19 MS, do you know what the S means there? 20 A. I believe that would have been an early 21 designation of like the sawgrass sites. 22 Q. What about the P in the next one, 300 M? 23 A. I believe we found a lot of Panicum there 24 and I believe that very well might have been in the 25 open areas. 470 1 Q. And the number of meters may indicate the 2 distance from the edge of the road? 3 A. Crude estimate of the distance from the 4 edge of the road. 5 Q. US 41? 6 A. Probably more likely to represent distance 7 from the old Tamiami Trail, remnant of the road 8 there. 9 Q. Further down it goes to T2 Can, and if 10 that means canal, why is there a T1 and T2 canal 11 site? Can you tell what that means? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. Let me take a moment. 14 Q. Sure. 15 (Pause) 16 A. I am not real certain what the T1, T2 and 17 T3 are. I believe they designate different culverts 18 across the Tamiami, the old Tamiami Trail. But I 19 don't have any idea right now where they are in 20 location. Maybe Dan Scheidt would be able to tell 21 us. 22 Q. In addition, the Can is sometimes preceded 23 by a number with a T in front of it and sometimes it 24 is preceded by just a number, like there is T2 Can 25 followed by 5 Can. Can you tell us the difference 471 1 between T2 Can or 5 Can, does that designate any 2 difference? 3 A. It must be. 4 Q. Then the last three sample sites on that 5 column appear to refer to the water control 6 structures. 7 A. That would be correct. 8 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 9 will ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 32 and ask 10 if you can identify it. 11 (Exhibit RJ 32 was marked for 12 identification) 13 (Pause) 14 A. Offhand, I don't recognize this to be 15 anything more than some total phosphorus in some 16 sediments. I don't know what the sample site 17 designations are, offhand, seeing them out of context 18 like this. 19 Q. So I take it you don't know why the sample 20 sites sometimes have an X after them and sometimes 21 don't? 22 A. I don't know what the sample sites are 23 here so that would be correct. 24 Q. But this appears to be total phosphorus 25 concentrations in sediments? 472 1 A. In soils, yes. 2 Q. Just to make sure I can read this, because 3 it is similar to some of the other sets of data that 4 have been produced from your office, to look at what 5 has been labeled as sample site 004 for example, 6 there are two, apparently two sets of samples were 7 taken there, and if you move across to the right 8 there are two numbers under P K H G T, is that 9 correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And then apparently an average is 12 calculated from those two numbers in the next column? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And then the total phosphorus 15 concentrations are reflected in the last column to 16 the right? 17 A. That appears -- 18 Q. Of 547? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And then the same thing is repeated again 21 for 004 which I take it is two more samples from the 22 same site, you would assume? 23 A. I would assume that's correct. 24 Q. And then the total phosphorus 25 concentration is 548 apparently? 473 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So 547 and 548 correspond to sample site 4 3 on this exhibit, is that correct? 4 A. Right. If you realize though, remember, I 5 pointed out sample site doesn't necessarily mean 6 that, this is the generic spreadsheet. 7 Q. That would be true for the rest of the 8 sample sites on this exhibit, presumably? 9 A. Presumably. 10 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 11 hand you another document marked as RJ 33 and ask if 12 you can identify it. 13 (Exhibit RJ 33 was marked for 14 identification) 15 A. It appears to be almost identical to RJ 16 33, the only difference that I can see is the 17 difference in the value for the standards. It might 18 represent an additional run using these same samples, 19 another analysis. 20 BY MR. JACKSON: 21 Q. RJ 32 and 33 seem to be almost identical, 22 is that what you said? 23 A. Giving it once down the columns comparing 24 the numbers, looking at everything, it would appear 25 that they are almost identical with the exception 474 1 that there is a different value there for standard 2 64.88 on RJ 33 and 64.56 on RJ 32. 3 Q. And what is that standard? 4 A. A hundred micromolar standard. 5 Q. And also at the top of RJ 33 it says 6 samples lot 89 and then space 2? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And on RJ 32 it says samples lot 89? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. That would also make it seem like it was 11 another run of the same data? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 14 hand you this document and mark it as RJ 34 and I 15 will ask you if you can identify it. 16 (Exhibit RJ 34 was marked for 17 identification) 18 (Pause) 19 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q. You may want to look at what already has 21 been entered into the record and identified as RJ 19 22 because I think it is part of the same document. 23 (Pause) 24 A. I believe you are correct on that. I 25 believe this is the, I guess it would be preceding RJ 475 1 19, the pages immediately preceding. 2 Q. It seems to me that RJ 34 is the first 3 three pages of a document that if combined with RJ 19 4 would be more or less the entire document. 5 A. For Water Conservation Areas 2A/3A, I 6 believe that's correct. 7 Q. So the sample site prefix 2A refers to 8 Water Conservation Area 2A? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So it is the transect that you ran in 2A? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Otherwise it is the same as RJ 19? 13 A. Yes. 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 15 Q. And the answer to the question was yes? 16 A. It's a portion of RJ 19 so it has to be. 17 Q. It reflects the same information that is 18 reflected on RJ 19, just for different sample sites? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the same calculations were made with 21 respect to the total phosphorus? 22 A. I would assume that's correct. 23 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 24 hand you a document that will be marked as RJ 35 and 25 ask you if you can identify it. 476 1 (Exhibit RJ 35 was marked for 2 identification) 3 (Pause) 4 A. The document labeled RJ 35 would appear to 5 represent a compilation of the data contained in RJ 6 34 and the top I believe eight lines of RJ 19. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q. Station 11 shows up on RJ 19 in Water 9 Conservation Area 2A? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And TP numbers that are listed in RJ 35, 12 those are the averages of the total phosphorus 13 concentrations from the sample sites that are listed 14 in RJ 34? 15 A. And RJ 19. 16 Q. What about the phosphatase column on RJ 17 35? 18 A. That would have been added at a later 19 time. 20 Q. So to your recollection the phosphatase -- 21 what do you do with phosphatase, you sample for it? 22 A. You sample the water for it. 23 Q. Those water samples taken that are 24 reflected in the phosphatase column, to your 25 recollection, were taken at a different time from the 477 1 soil sediment samples? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 3 question. 4 A. I believe that's correct. 5 Q. And the distances that are reflected on RJ 6 35 under the heading KM, I assume those are 7 distances? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. Do you know what point they are distances 10 from? 11 A. Looking at RJ 3, I would say they are 12 probably distances from S-10C. 13 Q. And those distances were calculated or 14 estimated using Loran? 15 A. I believe these distances I probably would 16 not have calculated myself. Bob Doren would have 17 calculated them and these were at his stations that 18 were marked in this particular area. 19 Q. Mr. Doren flagged the stations? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Do you recollect when the total phosphorus 22 sediment samples were taken approximately? 23 A. Sometime prior to the 9th of August, 1989. 24 Q. Had Mr. Doren selected this transect 25 location? 478 1 A. I can't really -- I do not believe that 2 that's entirely correct. I believe I had a fairly 3 large role in helping him to determine where this 4 transect would be run. 5 Q. What criteria did you use to identify the 6 location of this transect? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 8 it has been asked and answered. 9 A. I don't quite understand what you are 10 asking me. 11 Q. What led you to place this transect at 12 this location as opposed to somewhere else in WCA-2A? 13 A. I believe there were a number of factors, 14 discussions with various people, and I don't remember 15 offhand what exactly led to the decision to put the 16 transect at that particular location. 17 Q. Could you describe some of the factors 18 that you believe may have led to that decision? 19 A. Things that I would have been looking at 20 would have been water deliveries into Water 21 Conservation Area 2A, I can't say how much that 22 played a role in there, a transect that would be 23 located along one of the vectors of flow in 2A, and I 24 believe I went almost all the way across to what I 25 believe is labeled as DL 35 B. I am not sure about 479 1 that designation. But those would have been my two 2 principal components. 3 Q. Do you remember who else participated in 4 the decision with respect to the location of this 5 transect? 6 A. I know for sure that Dan Scheidt and Bob 7 Doren and possibly Mark Maffei would have been in on 8 that decision. 9 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 10 am going to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 36 11 and ask you if you can identify it. 12 (Exhibit RJ 36 was marked for 13 identification) 14 A. I believe this represents the figure that 15 was generated using the numbers on RJ 35. 16 BY MR. JACKSON: 17 Q. I believe you testified that your 18 recollection is that the phosphatase sampling 19 occurred after the -- at a different date and a later 20 date than the total phosphorus sediment sampling, is 21 that correct? 22 A. I would believe that's correct, I am not 23 entirely certain of that. 24 Q. But the phosphatase values were collected 25 along the same transect? 480 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Were the flags still there when you took 3 the phosphatase samples? 4 A. You have to remember, I don't remember 5 when I collected the phosphatase samples there, if I 6 am not mistaken may have been in Water Conservation 7 Area 2A when I did this but I don't remember if I 8 took phosphatase at the time or not. There may be 9 another representation of phosphatase for this 10 particular area. So I don't know without seeing 11 that. 12 Q. The only point of my question was how you 13 knew you were still in the same transect Mr. Doren 14 had flagged. 15 A. At that same time we would have used the 16 Loran, he would have had used the Loran to locate the 17 original stations and we would have gone back to 18 those same Loran coordinates. 19 Q. So those coordinates would have to have 20 been recorded somewhere? 21 A. I assume that's correct. I don't have 22 those particular coordinates, I believe they were in 23 the field notes and came from Dan Scheidt. 24 Q. Or in Mr. Doren's files? 25 A. In Mr. Doren's files, perhaps. 481 1 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 2 hand you a document that has been used in a prior 3 deposition, Mr. Soukup's deposition and it was marked 4 in that deposition as MS 14 and I propose that we use 5 the same number for it in this deposition. 6 I would like to ask the court reporter to 7 hand this document to you and see if you can identify 8 it. 9 (Exhibit MS 14 was marked for 10 identification) 11 (Pause) 12 A. The last two pages, I had seen something 13 similar to, I'm not sure it is the same. 14 BY MR. JACKSON: 15 Q. There are actually two documents combined 16 here apparently and the second one is two pages of 17 figures, is that what you are referring to? 18 A. The two figures at the end of the 19 document. I am not familiar with these figures 20 directly. I may have seen them at one time. I don't 21 recall whether it was this figure or something of 22 similar nature. 23 Q. So I take it you did not prepare this 24 document that has been marked as MS 14? 25 A. No, I did not. 482 1 Q. Do you know the total P that is reflected 2 in the last two pages of MS 14 on the figures, the 3 total P, do you know what that represents? 4 A. Those would be my numbers. 5 Q. For soil sediment? 6 A. For soil sediment total phosphorus. 7 Q. And these would be along what we have been 8 calling the S-12C transect, if you can tell that? 9 A. I don't believe it is the S -- wait, maybe 10 it is. 11 (Pause) 12 A. From this I would have to say I can't 13 really tell whether it is the S-12C transect but I 14 would believe that is correct, in Everglades National 15 Park, without looking at the numbers and knowing what 16 they were out here. 17 Q. Let me ask, because I thought you said 18 that these seem to be your numbers, my only question 19 is, do you know where the sampling sites are? 20 A. I am not familiar with this figure so I 21 don't know what was used to generate this figure. 22 The only person that I know of that has 23 done any total phosphorus in Everglades National Park 24 or on these things coming from Mike Soukup's 25 deposition I assume would be my myself so I make that 483 1 assumption. I guess I could be wrong, somebody else 2 could have done this but I doubt it. 3 Q. And you don't know who prepared these 4 figures? 5 A. I could guess but I don't feel like I 6 really want to do that. 7 Q. What about the first two pages, do you 8 know who prepared this list of information? 9 A. Same answer, I could guess but I really 10 don't know for sure. 11 Q. You said, I thought, that you recollected 12 having seen the figures before, the last two pages of 13 MS 14. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember when and in what context? 16 A. I do not. 17 Q. Did you say that you had seen other 18 figures that were similar to these? 19 A. I had seen a lot of figures and I may have 20 seen these figures or I may have seen other figures 21 that were similar to these. I don't have any way of 22 knowing for sure whether they were these or some 23 other figures. 24 Q. Do you know the identities of any of the 25 people that have prepared any of the figures that you 484 1 have seen that are similar to these? 2 A. I again don't know -- I know who is in 3 charge of this particular set of -- this data set and 4 that would be Bob Doren, but I don't know if he 5 prepared the figures or whether anyone else in his 6 group prepared the figures or not. 7 Q. What does it mean for Bob Doren to be in 8 charge of this data set? 9 A. This was his portion of the project, I 10 believe. But again, it has something that says MS 11 chart on the top and I mean, that is not Bob's data 12 so as far as I know Mike Soukup would have prepared 13 these. I don't really know. 14 Q. What is the project to which you refer? 15 A. Not any project in general, I just believe 16 that Bob Doren is in charge of vegetation at the 17 Park. I'm not certain of that. 18 MS. PONZOLI: Are you at a breaking point 19 where we can take a brief break? 20 MR. JACKSON: Sure. 21 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 22 after which the following proceedings 23 were had) 24 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the record. 25 BY MR. JACKSON: 485 1 Q. I believe we all now have a document that 2 I am going to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 3 37. 4 (Exhibit RJ 37 was marked for 5 identification) 6 Q. I would like to ask you, Dr. Jones, if you 7 recognize this document. 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 10 A. This represents some very crude 11 calculations I made, I was asked to make concerning 12 the possible input of phosphorus by the Miccosukee 13 Indian -- I don't know if it is a reservation or the 14 population that exists on the boundaries of 15 Everglades National Park. 16 Q. Near the S-12 structures? 17 A. Near I believe S-12A, S-12B. 18 Q. When were these calculations made? 19 A. It would have been sometime either -- not 20 either, late last year. I don't remember exactly. 21 Q. Who asked you to make them? 22 A. I believe Mike Soukup. 23 Q. The numbers at the top that say TP in 24 waste water, there is a line that says domestic and I 25 can't tell what the next word is. Do you know what 486 1 it means, that comes right before 15? 2 A. I believe the word is max, meaning maximum 3 or abbreviation for maximum. 4 Q. What does the 15 mean? 5 A. I would assume that would be the maximum 6 would be 15 milligrams per liter. 7 Q. And then the next number appears to be the 8 average of milligrams per liter? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And the minimum would be 4? Am I correct, 11 the minimum would be 4? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Where do these numbers come from? 14 A. A waste water engineering manual. I don't 15 believe I can be anymore specific than that without 16 actually getting it. 17 Q. And the next line that is labeled water 18 use, what do the numbers mean there, 350, 280 and 19 190, how are they being measured, what kind of units? 20 A. It says liters per -- I don't know if that 21 is P per person per day or what that is at this 22 point. I believe it would be person. 23 Q. So it is volume of water use? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What do the numbers S-12A, S-12B, S-12C 487 1 and S-12D, what do they represent? 2 A. They are not estimates, I don't want to 3 call it that. 4 Q. Approximations of the load of the 5 phosphorus coming through those particular 6 structures? 7 A. I don't know if it is average for a year, 8 an approximation. I believe I got those numbers from 9 Dan Scheidt. 10 Q. And those are approximate loadings of P 11 through those structures, they are total loadings, 12 not just loadings that might be attributed to the 13 Miccosukees? 14 A. That would be total load. 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 16 A. I don't know how it was calculated. I 17 don't know whether the Indians are included in that 18 or not. I doubt it, otherwise there would have been 19 very limited reason for me to make these 20 calculations. 21 Q. Do you know whether anyone has collected 22 water quality samples downstream from the Miccosukee 23 reservation? 24 A. I do not know if it has been done. 25 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 488 1 hand you a document to be labeled RJ 38 and ask if 2 you can identify that document, please. 3 (Exhibit RJ 38 was marked for 4 identification) 5 (Pause) 6 A. I recognize this. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 9 A. This was an experiment we were doing in 10 the laboratory to examine the effects of the amount 11 of sample on the response, recorder response. We 12 were just checking out the chemistry. 13 Q. On the recorder response, is that what you 14 said? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What does that mean, what is the recorder 17 response? 18 A. I believe I described that on the Friday 19 of my previous time here, that as the samples are 20 analyzed the results are recorded on a chart recorder 21 at that time and that represents peak height, if you 22 will, the recorder response. 23 Q. And the left-hand column has numbers that 24 are appear to be 5 MG, 10 MG, et cetera, down. 25 A. That's correct. 489 1 Q. What does that mean? 2 A. That would be the amount of sample that 3 was weighted to those vials, approximately. 4 Q. In milligrams? 5 A. In milligrams, the exact weight would be 6 in the sediment dry weight column. 7 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 8 hand you another document marked as RJ 39 and ask you 9 if you can identify that. 10 (Exhibit RJ 39 was marked for 11 identification) 12 (Pause) 13 A. Yes, I think I know what this is. I 14 didn't know I had it. 15 BY MR. JACKSON: 16 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 17 A. We had put some periphytometers out at the 18 nutrient dosing site as I mentioned earlier and I 19 believe these are the results of the total phosphorus 20 collected from the material collected on those 21 slides. 22 Q. If I could direct your attention, please, 23 to RJ 14, the document that already has been 24 identified as RJ 14, does RJ 39 correspond to RJ 14? 25 A. In slight ways. I mean, they are not the 490 1 same data set. 2 Q. But they are at similar locations? 3 A. The locations, sample site locations are 4 similar. We didn't put periphytometers out at all 5 the samples we did for total phosphorus in the soils. 6 Q. The letters in the far left-hand column, 7 C, P, it is hard to tell, NP and N, would correspond 8 to the same types of letters found on RJ 14 in the 9 same place? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. What about the sample site, the numbers 12 for the sample site? 13 A. That would represent the meters from the 14 beginning of the channels and distance. 15 Q. And PO4 concentration that is recorded in 16 the far right-hand column of RJ 39 is the same type 17 of information that is recorded in the far right-hand 18 column of RJ 14? 19 A. Well, one of them is the plant material 20 that was collected on slides and the other one was 21 from soils so it would be the same type of material, 22 information, different matrix. 23 Q. 39 is not soil sediments? 24 A. No. 25 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 491 1 mark this next document as RJ 40 and hand it to you 2 and ask you to identify it. 3 (Exhibit RJ 40 was marked for 4 identification) 5 (Pause) 6 BY MR. JACKSON: 7 Q. I would like you to look at RJ 22, if you 8 would, please, because I believe RJ 40 and RJ 20 are 9 virtually the same document with one difference. 10 MS. PONZOLI: 20 or 22? 11 MR. JACKSON: 22. 12 MS. PONZOLI: 20? 13 MR. JACKSON: 20, yes. 14 Q. Just for the record it appears to me RJ 20 15 is simply an incomplete copy of RJ 40. Is that 16 correct? 17 (Pause) 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. If you could refer back to your affidavit, 20 please, the declaration that has been labeled RJ 1, 21 and if you could look at paragraph 14 for me, please. 22 The first sentence of paragraph 14 says, "My field 23 observations and laboratory measurements of total 24 phosphorus levels in Everglades soils indicate that 25 once the peat becomes saturated it can no longer hold 492 1 additional phosphorus and then phosphorus added to 2 saturated peat is transported downstream and taken up 3 by unsaturated peat." 4 Can you tell me what you mean by the 5 phrase saturated peat? 6 A. Peat that contains its, if you will, 7 maximum amount of phosphorus for that particular soil 8 type at a particular, if you will, time period in its 9 history. 10 Q. How do you determine what the maximum 11 amount of phosphorus is for peat? 12 A. We have a bunch of field observations and 13 laboratory measurements that indicate a value for 14 that, plus we can look at the experiments and you can 15 observe the saturation occurring in the experimental 16 results. 17 Q. I am not asking for what the numbers are, 18 I am trying to determine how you know peat is 19 saturated. How do you determine that it has reached 20 the saturate point? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 22 answered. 23 A. I pointed out, I believe, that it is done 24 by observations and laboratory experimentation. 25 Q. What are those observations? 493 1 A. The observations would be values for total 2 phosphorus that I've determined from field samples 3 and then the shapes of the curves from the laboratory 4 measurements. 5 Q. When you determine the value from the 6 field observations, how do you know that that value 7 represents saturation? 8 A. It is a judgment call to some extent. 9 There is also information that can be tied in from 10 other organic soils, knowing what level they saturate 11 at, if you will, different values from different 12 areas of both Everglades National Park and also from 13 other parts of the country and Canada. 14 Q. What sort of factors go into the judgment 15 call? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. I would say the principal factor would be 18 the concentration of total phosphorus in that soil 19 would be the principal. 20 Q. Does the concentration of total phosphorus 21 in the soil have to reach a certain level before you 22 determine that that soil is saturated? 23 A. That's not necessarily the case. I 24 believe I pointed out that there is a certain history 25 involved in the formation of the soils and that would 494 1 also be involved in determining whether the soil was 2 saturated or not at that time or not. 3 Q. How would that history affect that 4 determination of saturation? 5 A. Well, a soil, for instance, that has a 6 very, very high concentration of total phosphorus may 7 be able to take on additional phosphorus but that 8 depends on how it had received its initial loading, 9 whether it had received it over a very short period 10 of time or whether it had received it over a long 11 extended period of time. 12 Q. Why would that make a difference? 13 A. It makes a difference from both the 14 chemical partitioning standpoint and the microbial 15 diagenesis of organic material and how it is formed. 16 Q. Can you tell me what difference it would 17 make if the soil had received phosphorus over a short 18 period of time, would that make it reach saturation 19 sooner or later? 20 A. The question being whether it would reach, 21 if you introduce phosphorus over a very short period 22 of time whether it would be faster or slower to reach 23 saturation? 24 Q. Yes? 25 A. It would be faster to reach saturation. 495 1 Q. Why would that be? 2 A. Because if you put a large quantity of 3 available phosphorus on to a system, the 4 microorganisms are going to incorporate that very 5 rapidly into their pools, that's the first order of 6 incorporation. 7 And at that point they would become 8 saturated and then the material would -- they 9 wouldn't be able to take up any more phosphorus. 10 Q. If you were sampling soil in the 11 Everglades, how would you determine whether or not 12 that soil was in the category of one that had 13 received phosphorus over a long period of time or 14 over a short period of time? 15 A. That is not, that's not something that I 16 determined. 17 Q. But I thought you said the history of the 18 soil was something that would be a factor that would 19 go into the judgment call as to whether or not it was 20 saturated. 21 A. It is something that would go in but it is 22 not something that I have a number for that says I 23 determined how old that particular soil was or at 24 what rate it received the material. There are things 25 we are doing now that may help elucidate that but we 496 1 haven't got that data at this point. 2 Q. If you don't know the history of soil, can 3 you still make the judgment call that you referred to 4 about saturation? 5 A. I didn't say I didn't know the history, if 6 you will, I mean, I know some general portions of the 7 history of that particular soil, the soils that we 8 have. I just don't know it to the sufficient detail 9 to use it as a principal component in determining 10 whether a soil is already saturated or not. 11 Q. I believe you also testified that the 12 saturation point of soils may vary from place to 13 place even within the Everglades? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 15 question. 16 A. That's correct. I don't remember whether 17 I testified to that or not. 18 Q. It is correct anyway, though. 19 With respect to making a determination of 20 whether soils in the field are saturated, have you 21 relied on any specific scientific methods to assess 22 whether or not a soil is saturated? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 24 A. I don't believe I've made any assessments 25 of, whether, you know, going down saying for instance 497 1 a transect and can say a soil is saturated and this 2 one isn't. I have some feeling for whether they are 3 or are not and what the level. 4 Paragraph 14 I don't believe states that 5 there are saturated areas in Everglades soils, it 6 just states a fact what happens when a soil becomes 7 saturated. 8 Q. So you have not specifically identified 9 the location of saturated peat soils in the 10 Everglades? 11 A. I won't say that I have not identified 12 locations of saturated peats. 13 Q. You have? 14 A. I know where saturated peats are in the 15 Everglades. 16 Q. Have you identified that location 17 yourself? 18 A. I have identified that location myself, 19 yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Q. For the soils that you did identify in the 22 Everglades as saturated or that you feel are 23 saturated, how did you determine that they were in 24 fact saturated? 25 A. Laboratory experiments on those particular 498 1 soils looking at how they incorporate phosphorus. 2 Q. How did you measure how they incorporated 3 phosphorus? 4 A. It is described in several of the papers 5 that we presented using both radio labeled 6 orthophosphate and just a chemical analysis of 7 orthophosphate. 8 Q. Did they have to reach a certain 9 concentration of orthophosphate before you determined 10 that they were saturated? 11 A. That question makes no sense to me. 12 MS. PONZOLI: I guess I object to form. 13 Q. I thought you said that you determined -- 14 in the laboratory you made a chemical analysis of the 15 orthophosphate, is that correct? 16 A. Uptake of the orthophosphate, I am sorry, 17 I didn't say uptake. 18 Q. Did the uptake have to reach a certain 19 rate before you determined it was saturated? 20 A. It was more of the type of kinetics. I 21 mean kinetics indicate saturation very nicely. You 22 don't need to assume a concentration or anything. 23 When it reaches saturation it is very evident. 24 Q. How? How is it very evident? 25 A. The curve flattens out. 499 1 Q. Can you describe a threshold or a cutoff 2 for that saturation point? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. I am sorry, I don't understand what you 6 are asking me. 7 Q. A point at which saturation is reached 8 would be reflected by a flatness in the curve you 9 just referred to now? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Where were these soils taken from that you 12 examined in the laboratory and that you determined 13 were saturated? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 15 A. The soil that we have that we are 16 currently using that has the most -- that we 17 considered to be saturated soil comes from 18 immediately south of S-12D. 19 Q. Would that be within in the 100 meter 20 range that we have discussed before? 21 A. A hundred meter range meaning? 22 Q. South of the S-12D structure. 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Are there any other locations where you 25 have identified saturated soils in the Everglades, 500 1 saturated peat soils? 2 A. Not that we have done specific work in 3 trying to identify them as being saturated. 4 Q. Do you have a suspicion or a guess or an 5 estimate that they are located in other areas as 6 well? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 8 A. Yes, I have a suspicion or a guess. 9 Q. Where would those other areas be? 10 A. Water Conservation Area 2A, Loxahatchee on 11 both the east and west canals, around, say for 12 instance perhaps the southern area of Water 13 Conservation Area 3A where the water pools up in that 14 area. Those would be my guesses as to where soils 15 that are saturated also exist. 16 Q. To take the Loxahatchee area, you said in 17 the canals? 18 A. Adjacent to the canals in the area. 19 Q. Inside of the Refuge? 20 A. Right, certainly in the canals also. 21 Q. How far away from the canal in Loxahatchee 22 inside the Water Conservation Area do you think the 23 soils are saturated? 24 mS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. I 25 think you are moving from a guess further and further 501 1 away. 2 A. I wouldn't really venture a guess how far 3 that distance would be. 4 Q. But the only point at which you have 5 documented saturation in the laboratory is south of 6 the S-12D, is that correct? 7 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 8 A. The point at which we are documenting 9 saturation, we are currently working on those 10 samples. 11 Q. When do you expect to complete that work? 12 A. That work is ongoing. It is not really in 13 a state where we are looking for a completion date or 14 that particular type of thing. We are not examining 15 that soil to determine saturation kinetics of that, 16 we are just using that soil as an example of a 17 saturated soil. 18 Q. You also say in paragraph 14 in this first 19 sentence that, as I understand it, once the peat 20 becomes saturated the phosphorus added to the 21 saturated peat is transported downstream and taken up 22 by unsaturated peat, to break out one of the concepts 23 that is contained in that sentence. 24 Could you describe the field observations 25 that support that statement? 502 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 2 question. 3 (Pause) 4 A. The field observations I guess would be 5 again the observations of the total phosphorus 6 levels. 7 I shouldn't say that, the laboratory 8 measurements of total phosphorus levels in the soils 9 would be more relevant for what I was using in that 10 place. I don't know what the field observations are. 11 Q. I am sorry, your answer is that you cannot 12 refer to any specific field observations that support 13 that point? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 15 even know which one we are talking about at this 16 point in the question. 17 A. I don't know which field observations are 18 being referred to in this particular -- I don't know 19 how I used the term field observations in this 20 paragraph right now. 21 Q. What about laboratory measurements, then? 22 A. Laboratory measurements of total 23 phosphorus would be the things that gave me the 24 indication, the gradient would be the principal 25 component of that. 503 1 Q. And this is the gradient that you 2 described in paragraph 9 of your declaration? 3 (Pause) 4 A. One of them. It doesn't necessarily have 5 to be the gradient described in 9, it could also be 6 then observations of say gradients in Water 7 Conservation Area 2A or many other places. 8 Q. Let's take the one described in 9. That 9 would be one of the gradients you are referring to, 10 is that correct? 11 A. Not necessarily. I haven't determined 12 whether there is saturation of the peat on that 13 particular transect. 14 Q. Are any of the gradients that you are 15 referring to described in this declaration? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. Could you? I didn't get the question. 18 (The question referred to was 19 thereupon read by the reporter 20 as above recorded) 21 Q. I may not have understood. I thought you 22 told me laboratory experiments demonstrated this 23 phenomenon we are talking about. Right now you 24 referred to gradients of phosphorus concentrations in 25 the soils, is that correct? 504 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are any of those gradients described in 3 this declaration that has been identified as RJ 1? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. I would have to read RJ 1 again and see 7 whether we used any of those gradients in here. I 8 don't remember whether we described them all. 9 (Pause) 10 A. Do you want me to go through it? 11 Q. I thought paragraph 9 was one of the 12 gradients you were referring to but I think now you 13 are saying it is not 14 A. Paragraph 9 may very well be one of them 15 but there may be others. I don't tie paragraph 14 to 16 paragraph 9 directly. 17 The saturation was described to you as 18 being a process that depends upon the history of the 19 soil, short term and long term, how it is exposed to 20 phosphorus, so saturation will be different for 21 different soils which I believe is the statement you 22 made that I agreed to. 23 Q. If the gradient described in paragraph 9 24 is one of the gradients that you are referring to, I 25 just want to ask you if you can show me how that 505 1 gradient demonstrates the phenomenon we are talking 2 about in paragraph 14. 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 4 A. You asked me to define saturated peat, 5 meaning a peat soil that I can say is saturated. 6 The point from the gradients and from the 7 types of soils is that the saturation depends upon 8 its history. So whereas one soil might have to have 9 10X the amount of phosphorus in it to be saturated 10 another soil with a more rapid exposure or more 11 long-term exposure, depending on the situation, might 12 only have to have 1X that amount to be saturated and 13 allowing material to move on. 14 But there is a point at which you get 15 unity where all soils would be considered to be, all 16 of these soils would be considered to be saturated. 17 And that I believe is the number, not 18 number, but the value or description of that 19 particular point that you were trying to ask me 20 about. 21 Q. But how does the gradient show once the 22 peat becomes saturated, and let's assume we 23 established that, that phosphorus added to the 24 saturated peat is transported downstream and is taken 25 up by unsaturated peat? 506 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. You asked 2 and he answered it multiple times. 3 A. I believe a gradient can be a 4 demonstration of saturation kinetics, if you will. I 5 don't know whether I would use the gradient described 6 in paragraph 9 as describing saturation kinetics. I 7 have to go back and look at it in that context. 8 Q. Take any gradient, how would it show 9 saturation kinetics? 10 A. If I had a gradient where I had some sort 11 of level value or very high values at the onset of 12 the gradient, then as those values started to go into 13 a transition phase that would indicate that the 14 original portion of that was saturated. 15 Q. What do you mean by the onset of the 16 gradient? 17 A. The onset of the changing slope. 18 Q. What about the transition phase, what does 19 that mean? 20 A. The transition would be the point where it 21 would go from a level to an area where it is 22 decreasing or increasing in the amount of total 23 phosphorus. 24 Q. Have you used any chemical tracer 25 measurements to identify the release and transport of 507 1 phosphorus downstream? 2 A. Where? 3 Q. In the Everglades. 4 A. No. 5 Q. The answer is no? 6 A. No. The answer is no. 7 Q. I am sorry? 8 A. Yes, the answer is no. 9 Q. Thanks. 10 Would that be a valid method of 11 determining the release and transport of phosphorus 12 downstream? 13 A. If you could come up with a legitimate 14 tracer for phosphorus, not just a tracer of water. 15 Q. I get the impression from your answer 16 there is implied a problem with coming up with a 17 legitimate tracer for phosphorus? 18 A. Phosphorus doesn't have any radioactive 19 species that are long enough lived to use it as a 20 tracer and it doesn't have any analogs other than 21 arsenic and perhaps molybdenum in metals and they are 22 not in sufficient quantities to be used as tracers. 23 Q. Have you conducted any field tests in the 24 Everglades to determine the relationship of the 25 phosphorus concentration in the soil and the rate of 508 1 phosphorus uptake in that soil? 2 A. We have a limited data set on that, yes. 3 Q. Where was that data collected? 4 A. It was collected in two areas of the Park. 5 One of them would be at the nutrient dosing site and 6 the other would be in between, I believe it is S-12C 7 and S-12D. It may be actually in between the first 8 culvert and S-12C, but the site that is described in 9 those papers that we presented. 10 Q. Have you determined whether that uptake 11 rate changes over time? 12 A. You are going to have to be more specific 13 because the uptake rate changes over time depending 14 upon what you are measuring. 15 Q. With respect to the nutrient dosing site, 16 for example, did you determine that the rate of 17 phosphorus uptake in the soil changes over time? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 19 A. Time meaning laboratory scale, 20 experimental time, or time meaning calendar season or 21 year? 22 Q. Calendar. 23 A. No, we did not. 24 Q. What about at the site between 12D and 25 12C? 509 1 A. The site at the northern end, wherever it 2 is. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. It is the same thing goes there, we did 5 not use calendar time as being a determination of 6 whether the uptake rate changes. 7 Q. Did you or have you measured the soil 8 retention capabilities for nitrogen and phosphorus at 9 the site between 12D and 12C that we are talking 10 about? 11 A. We have looked at the effects of nitrogen 12 on phosphorus. We have not measured -- we have not 13 measured nitrogen as such. 14 Q. What about the retention capability of 15 phosphorus at that site, the soils for phosphorus at 16 that site? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You did measure that? 19 A. Yes, we measured that. 20 Q. And at the nutrient dosing site? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Have you made any measurements about the 23 soil retention capabilities for phosphorus of soils 24 at the marl sites that you encountered on the 12C 25 transect? 510 1 A. We are working on that now. Samples were 2 collected very close to the 12C transects, I don't 3 want to say they were along the 12C transects. 4 Q. When will that work be complete? 5 A. The work is again ongoing. It is part of 6 a Ph.D. project for a student in the laboratory. 7 We have some data that should be available 8 in the next couple of weeks, but then it is going to 9 be continuing for at least the next three to five 10 years. 11 Q. Who is the Ph.D. candidate? 12 A. Grace Richany. 13 Q. If you would look at paragraph 15 of your 14 declaration, please. 15 (Pause) 16 Q. The first sentence of the paragraph 17 describes three ways in which total phosphorus 18 effects can be eliminated from the peat and I would 19 like to direct your attention to the second way that 20 you have identified here which is that the 21 destruction of peat by fire which removes the 22 phosphorus from the peat but in such a way that the 23 phosphorus is transported downstream. 24 Do you see what I am referring to? 25 A. Yes, I do. 511 1 Q. Could you describe how phosphorus is 2 removed from peat when peat is destroyed by fire? 3 A. Phosphorus in the peat is in the 4 predominant form of organic phosphorus compounds. 5 When muck fires occur they oxidize this material to 6 generally orthophosphate. Then that material upon 7 reflooding, given that there is a component of that 8 flooding that is downstream, used here, that portion 9 of that orthophosphate that has been released would 10 be transported downstream. 11 Q. Would the other form of phosphorus be 12 transported downstream by that phosphorus? 13 A. The predominant form would be 14 orthophosphate ash, phosphorus that is contained in 15 the ash which may not be completely ortho, might be 16 transported downstream also as particulate, but that 17 is just speculation. 18 Q. And the orthophosphate that is released, 19 would that always be transporteded downstream if 20 there is sufficient flow? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 22 question. 23 A. Not necessarily. 24 Q. What would keep it from being transported 25 downstream? 512 1 A. Very rapid uptake by the communities or 2 the substrate that is at that point after the fire. 3 Q. I take it that is a theoretical effect 4 that you are referring to, or have you measured that 5 phenomenon? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 7 question. 8 A. It would be theoretical. 9 Q. Do you know what the rate of transfer of 10 the orthophosphate downstream would be? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. Do you know of any studies that have 13 attempted to quantify that rate? 14 A. I do not. 15 Are you referring to transports of the 16 orthophosphate, correct, after a fire? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. If I could direct your attention back to 20 paragraph 14, the last sentence says, "Thus, as 21 excess phosphorus continues to be added to the marsh, 22 the zone in which the peat soil accumulates and 23 becomes saturated with excess phosphorus expands." 24 I would like to ask you a question with 25 respect to that sentence. Have you collected data 513 1 which demonstrates this phenomenon? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 3 A. Some of my data may demonstrate that 4 phenomenon. I have not used it in that context. 5 Q. Were you relying on that data when you 6 wrote this portion of your declaration and this 7 sentence? 8 A. I believe considering that would be a 9 portion of the laboratory measurements of total 10 phosphorus, that I would have relied on it to some 11 extent. 12 But paragraph 14 is largely a fairly 13 accepted ecological consequence of loading soils, 14 saturation and transport. It is not an unusual 15 phenomenon to describe in this manner. 16 Q. That also refers to the expansion of the 17 zone that you referred to in the last sentence of 18 paragraph 14? 19 A. Certainly. 20 Q. That is a common accepted ecological -- 21 A. Oh, yes. 22 Q. Did that zone expand? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What about the rate at which it is 25 expanding? 514 1 A. I don't believe I indicated anything to do 2 with rates of expansion here. 3 Q. Do you know what the rate of expansion is? 4 A. For this particular system? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No. 7 Q. So can you say what the rate of expansion 8 is for saturated soils in the Park? 9 A. No. 10 Q. No? 11 A. No. 12 Q. To return to paragraph 15, please, the 13 next to last sentence starts with the word based at 14 the bottom of page 8, do you see where I am, based on 15 my knowledge? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That sentence reads, "Based on my 18 knowledge and understanding of phosphorus cycling in 19 Everglades peat soils it is my opinion that the 20 effects of elevated TP" -- or total phosphorus -- "in 21 Everglades soils have the potential to remain for 22 hundreds of years because of the limited ability of 23 the system to rid itself of phosphorus." 24 How did you arrive at the figure hundreds 25 of years? 515 1 A. Two things were used in arriving at this 2 figure. 3 One was an experiment in the laboratory 4 where we loaded the soil column with phosphorus and 5 then washed it off over a period of time, I don't 6 know what that is without seeing the data sheet, 7 calculated value that was remaining after this period 8 of time and looked at the curve to see what that came 9 up with. 10 And the other thing would have been values 11 from the literature and discussions with various 12 other people concerning phosphorus retention in 13 biotic communities, and abiotic communities and 14 coming to a general consensus, we felt that hundreds 15 of years was actually rather conservative. 16 Q. This laboratory experiment, what was the 17 source of the soil in it, the soil column? 18 A. I believe it would have been soil from the 19 nutrient dosing site control area but I'm not certain 20 of that without seeing the data sheet. 21 Q. Just to get my layman's understanding, you 22 saturated the soil in the laboratory, is that what 23 you were trying to do? 24 A. We added phosphorus to the soil in the 25 laboratory, it was not necessarily saturated in the 516 1 laboratory. 2 Q. But you were trying to determine the 3 effects of saturation of the soil? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. We were trying to determine if the length 7 of time that phosphorus added to soil would remain in 8 that soil only looking at the soil component and very 9 short time frame. 10 Q. What was the time frame that you looked 11 at? 12 A. I don't know. You would have to show me 13 the data sheet or I have to get the data sheet. I 14 don't remember. 15 Q. Not to pin you down to a precise figure 16 but just a relative figure, are we talking about 17 hours or days? 18 A. We are talking days, probably more likely 19 weeks, but I don't remember. 20 Q. And if I understand your testimony 21 correctly, you extrapolated the data that you 22 obtained from washing this column of soil with total 23 phosphorus over weeks to centuries? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 25 question. 517 1 A. I did not say that. I said we judged it 2 as a portion of it and the rest was based on 3 conversations and general understanding of what 4 happens to phosphorus in ecosystems. 5 Q. Could you tell me who some of those people 6 are that you consulted in those conversations? 7 A. Probably the person I spoke to most would 8 have been Dr. David Lean, L E A N. 9 Q. And could you summarize the conclusion 10 that you reached as a result of those conversations? 11 A. The conclusion that I reached is 12 summarized in paragraph 15. 13 Q. No, I mean with respect to taking the 14 information you got from washing the soil column over 15 weeks and extrapolating it over centuries. 16 A. I didn't take the column data from weeks 17 and extrapolating it into centuries. You are saying 18 I did that, I did not say I did that. 19 The conversations that we had were about 20 how phosphorus is held in nutrient limited systems 21 and not nutrient limited systems. And then we or I 22 came up with the understanding and still believe it 23 to be correct, that the phosphorus in these systems 24 unaffected would maintain itself for hundreds of 25 years. 518 1 Q. When you say that's a conservative 2 estimate, you might be willing to say that this might 3 also take millenia? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 5 A. I can give examples of systems where it 6 takes millenia. 7 Q. What are those? 8 A. Ocean sediments, for instance, lake 9 sediments, sediments of many estuarines and base 10 phosphorus is there for a long geological time. 11 Q. What was the total phosphorus 12 concentration in the soil column that you washed when 13 it was obtained from the field? 14 A. I don't know offhand. I would have to say 15 if it is in the control area it is somewhere between, 16 what, 150 and 300 micrograms per gram. 17 Q. How would that compare with the total 18 phosphorus concentration in the soil that we were 19 referring to before where you said that you had 20 identified saturated or virtually saturated soil in 21 the Everglades? 22 MS. PONZOLI: Excuse me, may I hear that 23 question again. 24 (The question referred to was 25 thereupon read by the reporter 519 1 as above recorded) 2 A. You want me to give you a value for the 3 saturated soils in the Everglades? 4 Q. Well, do you recollect the reference point 5 that I made? 6 A. I am not sure whether you are referring to 7 the soils that we are using currently in the 8 laboratory and calling them saturated soils or 9 whether you want my general opinion of what saturated 10 soils in the Everglades contain. 11 Q. No, I thought you said earlier that you 12 had identified saturated soils within, say, a hundred 13 meters south of the S-12D structure? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. It is those soils I am asking about. 16 A. You would have to look at the numbers on 17 the sheets. I believe it is around 1500 micrograms 18 per gram but that's a rough guess. 19 Could we take a break? 20 Q. Sure. 21 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 22 after which the following proceedings 23 were had) 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q. Dr. Jones, if I could direct your 520 1 attention to Exhibit RJ 4, it already has been 2 identified in this deposition. 3 (Pause) 4 Q. At the last set of sessions of this 5 deposition we asked you if you could look for the 6 review comments to which RJ 4 was responding. Were 7 you able to look for those comments? 8 A. Yes. We brought them with us this 9 morning. 10 I was not able to, I shouldn't say locate, 11 I know where the manuscript, the copies that were 12 marked by the various reviewers, I know where they 13 are at. They went back to the journal as requested 14 and we do not have copies of them. 15 MS. PONZOLI: I will hand those out. 16 MR. JACKSON: Do you have any additional 17 documents, Mrs. Ponzoli, in response to request of 18 production of documents or in response to our 19 requests at the previous sessions of the deposition. 20 MS. PONZOLI: I think this was in response 21 to a request at that session. 22 Is that accurate, Dr. Jones? 23 THE WITNESS: This is the latest iteration 24 of the total phosphorus paper. 25 (Pause) 521 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, total phosphorus paper, 2 Canadian journal. I don't believe that you requested 3 that. I just provide that. 4 (Pause) 5 A. The request was made that I look at some 6 additional documents to determine, I believe, one of 7 them was a document where there was a xeroxing 8 problem, running across it, and another one was where 9 I had mentioned that I might have had some notation 10 alongside of data points. 11 Q. The xeroxing problem, if I recall, showed 12 up on RJ 10, is that the one you are referring to, on 13 the second page? 14 A. Yes, it is. My examining the documents 15 that we provided you all is that this document is not 16 amongst them but the original is amongst those 17 samples, so you have the original of this. This is a 18 document from my understanding that was produced down 19 from the Park files, not my files. 20 Q. I am sorry, you are saying that RJ 10 was 21 produced out of the the Park files and not out of 22 your files? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Maybe to shortcut this, do you have, Ms. 25 Ponzoli, a copy that doesn't have this xeroxing 522 1 problem? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I would have to look. I 3 didn't realize that would be -- you are asking me to 4 check the Park documents? 5 MR. JACKSON: Let me clarify the record. 6 Q. Dr. Jones, do you have a copy of RJ 10 in 7 your files? 8 A. No, I do not. I have this data in my 9 files. RJ 10 has got F numbers at the bottom of the 10 page and it has an ENP and then a dash and a number 11 there which means I do not have RJ 10 in my files, I 12 have this data. 13 Q. Could you provide the missing numbers for 14 the sites where the xeroxing has obscured the PO4 15 concentration values? 16 A. Yes, I believe I can. I will do that at 17 lunch or whatever, I will go through and see what 18 this thing is. 19 The question mark was why is this whited 20 out and this did not come from my documents. 21 You have been provided this same data, you 22 have it in your data set. 23 MS. PONZOLI: If I understand you 24 correctly, you believe over lunch you could locate 25 which document that they have already in their 523 1 possession reflects that data set? 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3 Q. If I have this same document that I got 4 from the Park, then it has this same xeroxing 5 problem? 6 MS. PONZOLI: You are not understanding. 7 He is telling you you have a data set that reflects 8 the data. They may have put it into their computer 9 and created some document that has a duplicating flaw 10 or something but the actual raw information you have 11 in some document in your possession and he will look 12 through that which he brought with him today to try 13 and identify which data set it is and then you can 14 look at the document you already have and compare it 15 to this document from Everglades National Park. 16 Am I accurate, Dr. Jones? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q. Did you bring a document with you today 20 that would help you determine that? 21 A. I believe I have a document with me today 22 that would help me determine that. 23 Q. Can we see that? 24 A. I will look for it at lunch. I have a 25 general idea of where it is at. I am sorry, I did 524 1 not -- this is not -- MS 10 is not one of my 2 documents. I have a similar document. 3 MS. PONZOLI: I have other documents, Mr. 4 Jackson. 5 MR. JACKSON: Can we go over those, 6 please? 7 (Pause) 8 MR. JACKSON: Let's go off the record for 9 a second. 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the record. 12 BY MR. JACKSON: 13 Q. Dr. Jones, if we could return to your 14 declaration that has been marked as Exhibit RJ 1, and 15 I would like to refer to paragraph 16. 16 (Pause) 17 Q. The first sentence of that paragraph 18 reads: "I have made hundreds of field visits to the 19 marshes in Everglades National Park, the Water 20 Conservation Areas and Loxahatchee National Wild Life 21 Refuge in the past five years." 22 I would like to ask you with respect to 23 that first sentence, how many hundreds are you 24 talking about? 25 A. Probably in the low hundreds, maybe 200 at 525 1 the most, 300. 2 Q. Could you estimate from that 2 to 300, how 3 many are in the Park? 4 A. The vast majority of them. 5 Q. How many of those were along the transect 6 south of the S-12C structure? 7 A. Formally along the transect south of the 8 S-12C structure, no more than 10. 9 Q. You use the word formally. I think we 10 have determined that the S-12C transect has a width 11 of approximately a hundred meters more or less, is 12 that correct? 13 A. You have determined that it has a width of 14 approximately a hundred meters, I have said that it 15 has some unknown width, each time we were there we 16 were sampling no more than 50 meters on one side from 17 the helicopter versus the other. 18 Q. The location of your sampling sites would 19 be within a hundred meters? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When you say formally, are you limiting 22 the answer of approximately 10 visits to that 100 23 meter width? 24 A. To the transects along that particular 25 line of longitude, I would say that out there, I have 526 1 been out there when people have been sampling in 2 wider than a hundred meters. 3 Q. How many field visits would that number 4 be, if you go outside the hundred meter width of the 5 transect? 6 A. I believe two. 7 Q. There was also a somewhat shorter or 8 incomplete transect below the 12D structure that we 9 discussed in the first two days of your deposition. 10 Would any of the field visits that you are 11 referring to in the first sentence of paragraph 16 be 12 along that transect as well, too? 13 A. I have flown many, many times in the 14 northern end and over the entire Park and I would 15 hate to say that I had not been along that transect 16 on multiple occasions, the same as this formula, if 17 you will, visits to the S-12C transect. You know, we 18 fly up that direction quite often. 19 So there are a lot of times when I have 20 not been out there formally for doing field work 21 myself at those sites, showing other people around, 22 et cetera. 23 Q. And so your observations would include 24 what you are calling these informal visits as well, 25 too? 527 1 A. Most certainly. 2 Q. And you referred to the northern end of 3 what I assume you meant to be the northern end of the 4 Park. Could you just give me a general geographic 5 description of what you mean by the northern end of 6 the Park? 7 A. I would guess -- I don't really want to 8 put a defined boundary on what is north and south in 9 the Park. I mean -- 10 Q. Let me withdraw that question then so we 11 don't beat that dead horse. 12 A. Please. 13 Q. Let me ask with respect to the first 14 sentence in paragraph 16 if you could tell me how 15 many formal field visits to the Park you would 16 estimate are included in this first sentence of 17 paragraph 16. 18 A. Sampling in the Park where I have actually 19 collected samples or been in the field taking other 20 people out and helping them with their sampling would 21 probably be in the range of maybe 150 or so, 22 somewhere around there. 23 Q. Sampling visits? 24 A. Sampling visits, yes. 25 Q. Have you made any record of these visits 528 1 with respect to vegetation? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The statements that you make in paragraph 4 16 of RJ 1, are you relying on any written record of 5 vegetation for those statements? 6 A. No, none of the vegetation, I mean, this 7 is all observation. 8 Q. And you are relying on memory with respect 9 to these vegetation observations? 10 A. Yes, I have to say it is my memory, yes. 11 Q. When you have made these observations have 12 there been other scientists with you who are also -- 13 let me withdraw that question. 14 When you were making these visits that you 15 referred to in paragraph 16 were there also 16 scientists with you who were assessing the vegetation 17 of the Park? 18 A. At some times. 19 Q. Who were those people? 20 A. Bob Doren, I forget the technician's name. 21 His technician, his name escapes me right now. 22 Q. Mr. Doren's technician? 23 A. Yes, Mr. Doren's technician. 24 Q. We have field notes from Mr. Scheidt so I 25 think -- 529 1 A. Dan Scheidt, yes. 2 Q. He would fall in that category too? Are 3 you aware of anyone else with you during these field 4 visits who was recording vegetation phenomenon? 5 A. Considering we are talking over a five 6 year period here, I would have to include John 7 Sternberg and Bill Loftus in these. 8 Q. Do you know, except for Mr. Scheidt, who 9 we already established took field notes during your 10 deposition, do you know if these other people took 11 field notes of their visits? 12 A. I would assume that that occurred. Bill 13 Loftus, for instance, was -- those field visits were 14 not along one of the transects, it was in the Park, 15 and just general times I have been out in the 16 northern area or in the Park with Bill and he had 17 been taking some information on periphyton and 18 various types of species relevant to his studies. 19 Q. And what does Mr. Sternberg do? Is he 20 employed by the Park? 21 A. I believe he was employed by the Park at 22 that time. 23 Q. And he is a scientist too, I think? 24 A. I believe so. 25 Q. Do you know what his specialty is? 530 1 A. I believe botany. 2 Q. What about Mr. Loftus? 3 A. Fisheries biology. 4 Q. I think you said that Mr. Doren was in 5 charge of vegetation, I take it by that you mean he 6 is a botanist or he is employed by the Park to deal 7 with vegetation issues? 8 A. He is at this current time. I don't know 9 what it was during the complete five years. I just 10 met Bob Doren recently. 11 Q. But ever since you have known him he has 12 been what you would consider to be a botanist? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. In the second sentence of this paragraph 15 16 you say that "Through these field visits and my 16 scientific studies of Everglades ecosystems I have 17 become familiar with the normal growth patterns of 18 native Everglades plant species." 19 Could you define the phrase growth 20 patterns for me, please? 21 A. I use this in a very general term meaning 22 that I'm familiar with the general characteristics of 23 various species of Everglades plants, where they can 24 be expected to be found and what they would look like 25 under unimpacted conditions. 531 1 Q. I am trying to zero in on the phrase 2 growth patterns. I'm not sure I understand why your 3 familiarity with where species happen to be located 4 has to do with growth, for example. Can you just 5 elaborate on that for me, please? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form, asked and 7 answered. 8 A. I think that you have to be very general 9 in what you determine to use the word growth defined 10 here, not necessarily meaning how much does the plant 11 weigh or how tall it is, but also what its spatial 12 distribution would be and what relationship that 13 holds with these particular systems. 14 Q. So did you measure the spatial 15 distribution of the species you are referring to in 16 the second sentence of paragraph 16? 17 A. I believe I said I became familiar with 18 their normal growth patterns. 19 Q. So the answer is no? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. If you mean did I formally measure it 22 using some sort of measuring device, the answer is 23 no. 24 Q. You also referred in your answer, I 25 believe the height or at least the size of individual 532 1 members of the species as being another way in which 2 one can determine growth patterns? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. It is an observation that could be made 6 and I would consider that to be a portion of growth. 7 Again, it is not a measurement, going out and 8 physically measuring exactly how high each plant is. 9 Q. You did not determine the -- let me 10 withdraw that. 11 You did not make a formal measurement of 12 plant size? 13 A. I made informal measurements of some plant 14 size. 15 Q. I realize that later on in this paragraph 16 you refer to the height of sawgrass. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And to exclude that for the time being you 19 did you make any formal or informal measurements of 20 plant size? 21 A. I judged individual plant sizes but I did 22 not make any formal measurements of that judgment, in 23 other words, was it a meter or was it a meter and 10 24 centimeters. 25 Q. What other species aside from sawgrass did 533 1 you make this judgment of plant size? 2 A. Cattail would be another. 3 Q. What others? 4 A. In size, in height, that would be about 5 it. 6 Q. What else could you measure beside height? 7 A. Density. 8 Q. Did you make any formal or informal 9 measurements of the density of any of the species you 10 are referring to in paragraph 16? 11 A. Informal estimates of density. 12 Q. What species did you make those informal 13 estimates of? 14 A. Panicum and I believe it is referred to as 15 arrow leaf. 16 Q. Arrow leaf? 17 A. Arrow leaf, it is Pontideria, for what it 18 is worth. 19 Q. I think we have discussed height and 20 spatial distribution. What other measurements of 21 size have you made with respect to the plant species 22 referred to in this second sentence? 23 A. I believe that probably represents it. 24 Q. That's it? 25 A. Yes, all of it. 534 1 Q. What about abundance, did you measure 2 abundance of these species? 3 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 4 A. I observed abundance of some of these 5 species. 6 Q. What is the difference between observing 7 abundance and measuring abundance? 8 A. To me measuring refers to applying a 9 device or a technique other than visual observation 10 and coming up with a number, if you will, for that 11 particular area. If I were to tell you I measured 12 total phosphorus I would be able to expect to give 13 you a number for that measurement. 14 Q. So you did not measure the abundance of 15 these species, is that what you are saying? 16 A. That is correct, in a direct manner. 17 Q. Would it be safe to say your observation 18 of abundance was an estimate? 19 A. Yes. 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 21 Q. What about with respect to the number of 22 individuals? 23 A. It would be an estimate. 24 Q. But you made that estimate as well too? 25 A. Yes. 535 1 Q. Did you measure or estimate the seasonal 2 timing of the growth of these plants? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. What about the flowering of these plants? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. What about the comparative percentage of 7 cover of the various species that you are referring 8 to in the second sentence of paragraph 16, did you 9 measure that? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you attempt to estimate that? 12 A. It would have been one of the visual 13 observations. 14 Q. What about frequency for these species, 15 did you compare the frequency of these species, did 16 you measure that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you estimate it? 19 A. If I have all the other numbers, I would 20 have to say I estimated it in some way, shape or 21 form. 22 Q. The species that we have talked about so 23 far with respect to the second sentence of paragraph 24 16 I believe are cattails, sawgrass, Panicum, arrow 25 leaf and that's all I have. Are there any other 536 1 species that you are referring to in the second 2 sentence of paragraph 16 that are native Everglades 3 plant species? 4 A. Utricularia, I believe Eleocharis would 5 have to be amongst them. 6 That would be -- periphyton, I guess, on a 7 whole we could consider to be a plant species. 8 Q. Any others? 9 A. I am not saying that is an exhaustive list 10 of every plant I have ever seen in the Everglades -- 11 Q. I just want the ones you are referring to 12 in the second sentence of paragraph 16. 13 A. That doesn't refer to anything, it says 14 Everglades plant species, it is pretty general. I 15 can't say that is a limited list. If somebody asked 16 me something about pond apple, I might be able to say 17 a little bit of distribution of that but -- 18 Q. Which ones did you mean when you wrote 19 this affidavit? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. I didn't have anything specific in mind. 22 Q. What do you consider to be normal growth 23 pattern as you use that phrase in the second sentence 24 of paragraph 16? 25 A. Those that I would observe at a further 537 1 distance south in the Park where it appeared to be as 2 background pattern, background vegetation patterns. 3 Q. How did you know that was normal? 4 A. That's an assumption that I assume that 5 that's normal considering those are pristine areas of 6 the marsh, conversations with other people as to what 7 a normal area would represent. 8 Q. I take it when you say pristine areas of 9 the marsh, we are talking about the areas that are at 10 the southern end of, for example, the 12C transect, 11 the 16 kilometer point? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object. 13 A. You could use that point, yes. There are 14 other areas of the marsh. I base this on all of my 15 field visits to the system, not just one. 16 Q. What other areas can you identify for me 17 that are pristine areas of the Park? 18 A. I don't feel like I should be identifying 19 pristine or unimpacted areas of the Park other than 20 central areas of the Shark River Slough, would be an 21 example of the marsh habitats that are pristine. 22 Q. That would include the site of the 23 nutrient dosing study excepting the areas that were 24 dosed? 25 A. Yes. 538 1 Q. Are there any other pristine areas that 2 you are referring to when you use the word normal in 3 the second sentence of paragraph 16? 4 A. I believe I stated I have been on lots of 5 trips to the Park and I would not be willing to 6 exclude other pristine areas. I just don't know how 7 to define, you know, on a map, what is pristine and 8 what is not pristine. I have a pretty good feeling 9 for where you would expect native communities to 10 exist. 11 Q. Would that feeling be based on the plant 12 communities that actually existed there as opposed to 13 say measurements of total phosphorus in soil or 14 water? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 16 question. 17 A. I believe we were referring to visual 18 observations of plant material here, vegetation 19 patterns. 20 Q. So your identification of these other 21 pristine areas would be based on the plants located 22 there, not on measurements of total phosphorus, for 23 example? 24 A. I at all times, I know now what the total 25 phosphorus concentration is in certain of these 539 1 areas, okay. 2 Prior to that I did not know what the 3 total phosphorus concentration was in these areas and 4 they had been described to me as being pristine areas 5 of the marsh. And therefore I can't make that 6 distinction. 7 Q. What about the areas where you know now 8 what the total phosphorus concentrations are, where 9 are those? 10 A. The areas on the S-12C transect, 11 essentially south of I believe 6 kilometers of where 12 we defined as total phosphorus as to where we have 13 impacted versus non-impacted areas. 14 Q. Anywhere else in the Park? 15 A. Anywhere south of 6 kilometers in the 16 Park. 17 Q. I mean where you measured the total 18 phosphorus? 19 A. The nutrient dosing site would be where I 20 have total phosphorus and some values in Taylor 21 Slough. 22 Q. And these total phosphorus values are the 23 sediment concentrations that we have been discussing? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. In any other medium, water, for example? 540 1 A. Water also would play a role in there. I 2 have a more limited set of, more limited data set for 3 the water. 4 Q. What about the alkaline phosphatase 5 sampling that you conducted? 6 A. It would not have come into play at this 7 point. 8 Q. With respect to the normal growth patterns 9 for, say, cattail, can you describe to me what those 10 are with respect to individual size? 11 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 12 A. That's not necessarily a way I was 13 making -- we are talking observations and now you 14 want me to put some absolute numbers on that. 15 Q. No, I want you to refer to your 16 observations. 17 A. My observations would be that the cattail 18 in pristine areas where you find it is either 19 localized around a nutrient source and is very 20 vigorous, or if you go into a portion of the marsh 21 that has background levels, if you can find a plant 22 at all, it is generally relatively small and not in 23 very high densities. 24 Q. You are referring to both spatial 25 distribution and height of individuals? 541 1 A. I can't really separate those out. Again 2 I am taking an observation here and my observation is 3 based on all of those components that we discussed. 4 You could take, if you had made very 5 detailed measurements of any one of those particular 6 components it could be used to make a judgment, but I 7 did an informal observation of these components and 8 so I can't really separate them. 9 Q. What about with respect to Panicum, what 10 is the spatial distribution of Panicum in the normal 11 site or pristine site? 12 A. Generally, the open water areas were 13 predominated by Eleocharis in the normal sites. 14 We found in the impacted areas that 15 Panicum very often predominated in these areas, and 16 in fact you could see where the Panicum had overtaken 17 what at one time was an Eleocharis marsh. 18 Q. And you are referring to now estimates of 19 spatial distribution of Panicum? 20 A. Spatial distribution and density, not 21 necessarily the characteristics of that individual 22 plant. 23 Q. What about with respect to arrow leaf, 24 what is the normal growth pattern of arrow leaf? 25 A. It is quite similar to, in distribution, 542 1 to cattail, although there are higher densities of it 2 found in most of the Park, from my understanding. 3 Again, it tends to have increased vigor, 4 larger plants, in areas that have been receiving 5 inputs of phosphorus. 6 Q. What understanding were you referring to 7 just now? 8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 9 A. Just my general understanding of -- 10 Q. No, but can you describe it for me, 11 please? 12 A. No, I can't. It is an abstract. 13 Q. Did you obtain it from other people, other 14 scientists? 15 A. My own observations and from discussing it 16 with other scientists and those types of things. 17 Q. What about Utricularia, what is the normal 18 growth pattern of Utricularia in the Park? 19 A. Utricularia is a major component of these 20 open water areas in Everglades National Park and 21 large spent bladders from Utricularia form a large 22 part of the periphyton mat. 23 Basically what I have noticed with 24 Utricularia is its absence in the northern part of 25 Everglades National Park. 543 1 Q. You said spent bladders; is that what you 2 said? 3 A. Yes, it is a bladder wart. They used 4 these bladders to trap small animals, if you will, 5 microscopic animals and obtain nitrogen and 6 phosphorus in the water using those sources. 7 Q. When you say, or at least I think you said 8 they were absent from the northern part of the Park, 9 did you say that? 10 A. The Utricularia? 11 Q. Yes, virtually absent. 12 A. The particular species which I don't know 13 as a species but just as Utricularia species which I 14 can identify by looking at it is absent in the 15 northern end of the Park. There are certain other 16 species of Utricularia found there. 17 Q. Can you give me the approximate geographic 18 area you are referring to when you say the northern 19 end of the Park? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form, asked 21 asked and answered. 22 Q. With respect to the Utricularia phenomenon 23 you just described? 24 A. I would not want to put a distance on that 25 but I would say it would be somewhere within the 544 1 first kilometer of the transect that there is very 2 little Utricularia. 3 Q. South of the Tamiami Trail? 4 A. South of the Tamiami Trail. 5 Q. What about with respect to Eleocharis, can 6 you describe the normal growth pattern of Eleocharis 7 in the Park? 8 A. It tends to be the predominant species in 9 these open water areas in the Park. And again, in 10 the northern part of the transect it seemed that 11 Panicum was the predominant species, rather than 12 Utricularia -- I am sorry, Eleocharis. 13 Q. And this is based on your observation, not 14 on actual measurements? 15 A. This is based on observation. All of this 16 is based on observation. 17 Q. And what about with respect to periphyton? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 19 question. 20 A. We have already discussed periphyton and 21 what I observed at the northern end of this transect 22 and the southern end of this transect I believe on 23 first day. We went into color and description. Do 24 you want to do that again? 25 Q. So if I recall that first day, the normal 545 1 growth pattern of periphyton refers to the species of 2 periphyton, not its absence? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 4 A. You have to describe periphyton as being 5 algae that are growing on the surface of or community 6 that is growing on the surface. It is not 7 necessarily all algae. 8 And, you know, I don't want -- the absence 9 of the normal community has been used, okay. But 10 there are algae that are growing out there in these 11 particular communities. They tend to be altered. 12 Q. I just, to understand you, when you refer 13 to the normal growth pattern of periphyton in this 14 second sentence of paragraph 16, my understanding is 15 you are referring to particular types of species, not 16 whether periphyton is present or not. 17 A. The normal growth pattern is referring to 18 the visual characteristics which I am making the 19 assumption on, I believe fairly solid ground, that 20 that is a concomitant tied to species. 21 Q. And which species are these that would be 22 found in the pristine areas for periphyton? 23 A. I don't have -- I don't really want to go 24 into species. I'm not qualified to say what species 25 are in the native periphyton. I have some general 546 1 knowledge of some of the species that are there but 2 not to particularly outline them. 3 Q. Which ones do you have a general knowledge 4 of? 5 A. Particular genre of some of the diatoms, 6 some of the cyanobacteria, blue-green algae. But 7 again I really don't want to go into saying this 8 species is here and this species is not there. There 9 are other people much more qualified to do that than 10 myself. 11 Q. Like who? 12 A. Dave Swift, Ron Raschke, I don't know who 13 else has gone into doing these particular types of 14 studies but there are certainly people that are more 15 qualified. 16 Q. Again, not to belabor this point, I just 17 want to make sure my understanding is correct, when 18 you refer to periphyton in the second sentence 19 implicitly in the phrase Everglades plant species, 20 you are not attempting to make any sort of 21 representation to the specific species of periphyton? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 23 A. That is correct. 24 (Pause) 25 Q. If I could direct your attention please to 547 1 the third sentence in paragraph 16 which reads: "The 2 macrophyte and algal communities that I observed in 3 Shark River Slough along the portions of the transect 4 in the Park (see map attachment 2) were altered as 5 compared to the macrophyte and algal communities in 6 pristine areas of the Park." 7 My question is with respect to the 8 transect that is referred to in that sentence, are we 9 speaking of the same transect more or less that we 10 have been calling the 12C transect? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Could you tell me what you mean by the 13 word altered in that sentence? 14 A. I believe the next -- the remainder of 15 this paragraph is basically defining examples of 16 that. 17 I mean, whereas sawgrass was 2 to 4 feet 18 high, 12 kilometers, et cetera. 19 Q. I understand those may be examples but 20 could you tell me what the word altered means in the 21 generic sense in that sentence? 22 A. Different. 23 Q. Different? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Different in any respect? 548 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 2 Q. I withdraw the question. Different in 3 what respects? Just the ones that are listed in the 4 rest of paragraph 16? 5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 6 A. No, because they are examples. 7 Q. Okay, in what other respects are you 8 talking about? 9 A. I already referred to visually apparent, 10 color changes that were evident. I wouldn't want to 11 limit it to what is in paragraph 16. 12 Q. I understand. I just want to see what 13 else you want to refer to when you used that word 14 altered if you are not going to limit it to the rest 15 of paragraph 16. 16 A. It is a pretty broad word, altered. It 17 can be positive or negative, I mean from the 18 standpoint of an individual plant, it could be more 19 vigor, less vigor. 20 We could go into other situations, not 21 necessarily in Everglades National Park where altered 22 meant that, say for instance, in a crop sense where 23 it had received fertilization and one where it had 24 not, altered one from another. Anything that would 25 be different from control I guess would be a way of 549 1 viewing altered. 2 Q. But I only want to ask that question in 3 the context of the way you used it in this sentence 4 in paragraph 16. 5 A. I believe I used it in a very general 6 sense, I just say altered as compared to macrophyte 7 and algal communities in the pristine areas of the Park. 8 Q. I think you also said in response to my 9 previous question different compared to a control or 10 something like that, did you say that? 11 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 12 A. I believe I am using the word different as 13 an analog to altered. 14 Q. What I want to focus on is what you meant 15 by the word controlled in that answer. 16 A. Pristine areas. 17 Q. Does this word altered refer to different 18 over time? 19 A. I don't understand the question. 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 Q. When you used the word altered in this 22 sentence in paragraph 16, you said that it means the 23 communities are different as compared to pristine 24 areas. Do you mean that this difference occurs over 25 time? 550 1 A. The difference occurs, that I observed, 2 would be at the same time in different places. 3 Q. Did you observe the difference over time? 4 A. You mean a change in the system? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No, I did not. 7 Q. What about over space? 8 A. Did I observe the change over space? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that's because you saw the different 12 phenomenon in different places? 13 A. I don't think I necessarily would call it 14 a phenomenon but I observed different communities in 15 different places. 16 Q. And that to you indicated that the 17 alteration was occurring over space? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 19 question. 20 A. That there is an alteration over space, 21 that is what that tells me. 22 MR. JACKSON: I am ready to break here if 23 you want to. 24 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, thank you. 25 (Luncheon recess) 551 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 1:45 p.m. 3 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the 4 record. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q. Dr. Jones, if you recall before lunch we 7 were discussing the possibility of getting some more 8 of the data for RJ 10 that was apparently obscured 9 when it was copied somewhere. Were you able to look 10 for that at lunch? 11 A. I did look for it at lunch and do not have 12 in my files here, which I think are my complete set, 13 I looked through all of them because my stuff came 14 back in a state of disarray also and I did not find 15 this, having a label MS or having the ENP tag on the 16 bottom of it. 17 I can only think this might be an early 18 set that I had sent to them and that, you know, I do 19 not have it anymore or it is not with me. I can't 20 imagine where else it would be, though. 21 I assume this came from the Park? 22 Q. When you say sent to them, you meant to 23 the Park? 24 A. Yes, that somebody had it down there in 25 one of their files. I just don't know -- 552 1 MS. PONZOLI: My understanding is that is 2 Skadden, Arps' number from the Park, from the 3 document you would have drawn there, is that 4 accurate? 5 It is not a federal government numbering 6 system. 7 Q. Just to try to make an identification of 8 the Park easier, do you remember who you sent it to 9 or can you say who might have it in their files? 10 A. I cannot. I mean, maybe Bob Doren has 11 part of this, but I think he would have got a 12 compilation of -- this is obviously one run on the 13 auto analyzer and I am sure he would have got a 14 complete listing of it rather than this. So I don't 15 know. I am sorry. 16 Q. If we can go back to the declaration that 17 has been marked for identification as RJ 1 and back 18 to paragraph 16 in that declaration, the third 19 sentence of the paragraph says that the macrophyte 20 and algal community that you observed in Shark River 21 Slough in portions of the transect in the Park were 22 altered as compared to the macrophyte and algal 23 communities in pristine areas of the Park. 24 Can you tell me along the transect, 12C 25 transect how far south of the S-12 structures this 553 1 alteration existed? 2 A. That depends on what particular change you 3 are looking at. I would not really want to fix on 4 any additional distances than I have already in 5 paragraph 16 on any of these alterations. That is 6 not -- 7 Q. Let's take sawgrass then, for example. 8 How far south of the S-12 did you see altered 9 sawgrass? 10 A. I believe, you know, it is stated here 11 that it was immediately adjacent to the S-12C 12 structure it was one height and then down in the 13 control or background areas it was another height, as 14 comparative types of things. 15 Again, I don't really want to put a 16 distance on this because there are vegetation studies 17 that have been done in the Park that have numbers 18 attached to it for these particular types of 19 parameters, at least for the species found in the 20 community things, and for me to use an observation 21 and just a general idea and then try to correlate 22 that with this, I don't think that would be the 23 correct thing to do, because of the fact that there 24 are numbers that exist for this. 25 Q. Who is doing that study? 554 1 A. Bob Doren. 2 Q. Anyone else? 3 A. No, I don't believe so. 4 Q. Are those studies complete to your 5 knowledge? 6 A. For the macrophytes? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I believe yes, they are. And as I said, 9 when I said no others, I was referring to macrophyte 10 because Ron Raschke from EPA has been doing some 11 macrophyte work. 12 Q. Are there any others in the Park? 13 A. On macrophyte changes. 14 Q. Or algal? 15 A. Algal, no others that's working on these 16 transects or anything. I know some other researchers 17 doing some research on algae in the Park. 18 Q. In your paragraph 16 you, one alteration 19 you referred to here is the height of the sawgrass 20 was apparently different at one point in the transect 21 than it was at a different point in the transect. 22 Did you observe any other alterations in 23 sawgrass on this transect? 24 A. That's the most visually apparent 25 alteration. 555 1 Q. And were there any that were less visually 2 apparent? 3 A. From my forming of this opinion, if you 4 will, I don't think I used anything other than that. 5 I can't say there are or are not apparent effects. 6 Those are the types of things you like to go out and 7 look at again and say, yes, I can see this now, when 8 somebody is asking you a question like that. 9 Q. I just want to get an idea of what your 10 observations include. So based on your observations 11 and your hundreds of field visits in the past five 12 years, what other alterations in sawgrass on the S-12 13 transect have you observed? 14 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 15 A. Height is the major component of that. I 16 pointed that out. 17 I mean, that ties to a more vigorous 18 plant, the blade width is wider on the plants, we 19 have seen that when we collected the leaf tips for 20 doing phosphorus analysis on them. 21 The areas are, I really wouldn't want to 22 use density as being specific, but there are are just 23 some visually apparent things. I really don't want 24 to go into describing what makes my condition -- what 25 I used here was height and I think that was probably 556 1 sufficient to say and call that an altered community 2 for this observation. 3 Q. The height would be sufficient to 4 demonstrate the alteration that you are describing 5 here? 6 A. Under these conditions, yes, that's what I 7 have used. 8 Q. With respect to the sawgrass, you report 9 in the next sentence that the sawgrass was 2 to 4 10 feet high 12 kilometers south of the S-12C but in the 11 first half kilometer south of the S-12C sawgrass I 12 assume is approximately 5 to 7 feet high, is that 13 correct? 14 (Pause) 15 MS. PONZOLI: Read that back, please. 16 (The question referred to was 17 thereupon read by the reporter 18 as above recorded) 19 A. I missed the assume. That's what the 20 sentence essentially says. 21 Q. Is that what you observed? 22 A. It is written down here, yes. 23 Q. Yes, it is what you observed? I know what 24 is written down, I don't need the deposition to 25 figure that out, but that's what you observed? 557 1 MS. PONZOLI: I think you are arguing with 2 the witness, Mr. Jackson. 3 A. I wrote it down there so I observed that. 4 Q. And what were the sawgrass heights between 5 half a kilometer south of the S-12C and the 12 6 kilometer point on this transect? 7 A. I just said that there was at a half a 8 kilometer it was approximately 5 to 7 feet between 9 that, in that area. I didn't say that at .6 10 kilometers it was any height at all. I didn't 11 associate anything with that. It may very well be 5 12 to 7 feet at .6 kilometers. 13 Q. Do you know what the sawgrass heights were 14 between a half kilometer south of S-12C and 12 15 kilometers south of S-12C? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. I have a general feeling for what happens 18 to this sawgrass in that particular area of the 19 slough, I mean, I know that it is decreasing in 20 height as you go south along there. 21 I don't have any way of correlating that 22 with precise distances. We just happen to have a 23 station at approximately half a kilometer so that 24 made a nice point for reference in here. 25 Q. Would the decrease along this transect be 558 1 consistent and gradual? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. You don't know? 4 A. No. 5 Q. How far south of the S-12C structure along 6 this transect was the sawgrass 2 to 4 feet in height? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. It 8 has been asked and answered. 9 A. I think the answer is that we used 12 10 kilometers as the point here. I don't know what it 11 is at 11 kilometers. I would assume it is around the 12 same. 13 Q. How far south of the S-12C structure was 14 the sawgrass 5 to 7 feet? Was it only at half a 15 kilometer or was it that height further south? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. What about with respect to the cattails 18 along this transect, what alterations did you observe 19 in the transect of cattail south of the S-12C? 20 A. Mostly their presence or absence and that 21 they had a considerable greater density at the 22 northern extreme of the transect rather than at the 23 southern terminus. 24 Q. Anything else? 25 A. Generally the fact of their presence and 559 1 absence. There was some, the cattail where it was 2 present in the northern end of the slough was very 3 vigorous, it grew very tall. 4 Q. And how far south along this transect did 5 the greater density of cattails extend? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 7 A. Again, there is data that exists for this 8 so I would really hate to try and put an absolute 9 distance on this when I know that there are numbers 10 that exist. 11 Q. I appreciate your reference to the other 12 data, but I am just interested in your observations 13 right now so based on your observations how far south 14 of the S-12C along this transect did the greater 15 density of cattails exist? 16 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered; object 17 to form. Mr. Jackson, are we going to spend the 18 whole afternoon badgering him with the same question 19 10 to 15 times? 20 A. I don't know is the answer to that. 21 Q. What about with respect to the very 22 vigorous growth, how far south along this transect 23 exists for the cattails? 24 MS. PONZOLI: Object to form; asked and 25 answered. 560 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. I am sorry? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Would you describe, please, the alteration 5 of Panicum along this transect? 6 A. I believe we pointed out again in 7 paragraph 16, RJ 1, that it was almost a presence and 8 absence in the area of the open water areas that were 9 inhabited by Eleocharis, but I'm not again, you know, 10 didn't go out and pick out the plant species and do 11 the density. Those numbers exist in Bob Doren's 12 files. 13 Q. How far south of the S-12C structure did 14 the Panicum exist, how far south was it present? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 16 answered. It is going to take us a long time to get 17 through all of this, Mr. Jackson. I think you are 18 harassing this witness. You know the answers to each 19 of these questions before you ask them. 20 I think 30 questions ago he told you that 21 the extent of his observations exist largely within 22 this paragraph which you have assured us you know how 23 to read. 24 A. I don't know the answer to that. I don't 25 want to fix an absolute distance on any of these 561 1 things. 2 Q. Can you estimate a distance? 3 MS. PONZOLI: He is not required to 4 estimate. I object to the form of the question. 5 A. I don't want to estimate a distance. 6 Q. Are you saying the Panicum existed south 7 of the 12C structure? 8 For example, you say the open water marsh 9 in the first half kilometer south of the S-12C were 10 dominated by the plant species Panicum, is that 11 correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. So you were able to estimate that the 14 Panicum species existed .5 kilometers south of the 15 S-12C, I assume? 16 A. It wasn't very difficult, the open water 17 areas contain practically nothing but Panicum within 18 the first half kilometer. I just don't know the 19 extent after that to give you an exact distance. 20 Q. I guess what I am getting at, you knew 21 where you were when you were half a kilometer south 22 more or less. 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. You had some kind of landmark apparently 25 that let you know how far south of the S-12C that you 562 1 were, is that correct? 2 A. I am not guaranteeing that the precise 3 moment I was standing out there that I knew it was a 4 half kilometer but I certainly at some time before I 5 composed this paragraph, I knew where I was standing 6 was a half kilometer into the area. 7 It is just that these are not distances -- 8 we use a half kilometer here, when I use a half 9 kilometer here, it's a value that can be 10 conservative. You can go into the marsh a half 11 kilometer and you would find open areas, Eleocharis 12 areas predominated by Panicum where Eleocharis would 13 be expected. 14 Q. What if you went in a kilometer, would you 15 still see that same effect? 16 A. I don't know. I am just saying what I 17 decided was to be conservative and stick with what we 18 knew was fact for the portion of this, preparation of 19 this paragraph. 20 Q. But based on your observations your answer 21 is you didn't know whether it extended a full 22 kilometer south? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 24 you are just trying to harass the witness and get him 25 to say I don't know. You frame the question to meet 563 1 your own particular strategy, Mr. Jackson. It is 2 really not a proper way of questioning. 3 A. It may be as far as a kilometer, it may be 4 as far as two kilometers. I don't have any way of 5 judging that distance right now. I mean, if I were 6 being asked to go on and put some exact bound on 7 this, I perhaps could fly this transect again and 8 make those judgments. 9 Q. Did there come a point along this transect 10 where Panicum was absent? 11 A. I don't believe there's anyplace in the 12 Park you could go where you actually would get a 13 total and complete absence of Panicum. I'm not so 14 sure of that, though. For me presence and absence is 15 almost a gross terminology, whether I see it as being 16 a major species or not. I am not a botanist. 17 Q. What about presence in the sense that you 18 used it in the seventh sentence of paragraph 16, the 19 one that starts off, "Presence of Panicum"? 20 A. Which sentence is this? 21 Q. The one that says, "Presence of Panicum." 22 (Pause) 23 MS. PONZOLI: Which line are you on, three 24 from the bottom? 25 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 564 1 A. I believe that would have to be considered 2 to be a relatively loose term, not meaning total or 3 complete absence of the thing but its relative 4 abundance or its predominance in an area. 5 Q. But it implies a relative absence of 6 Panicum in other places, is that correct? 7 A. If you use an absence in a total sense, 8 that would not be correct. If you use absence in 9 less than there was under a circumstance where it was 10 enhanced, then that could be -- that would be 11 correct. 12 Q. Let's use it in that context, then. Where 13 would that phenomenon occur along the 12C transect? 14 MS. PONZOLI: Object to form. You are 15 speaking of a relative absence, is that the question? 16 MR. JACKSON: No, I am speaking with 17 respect to the answer he just made. 18 MS. PONZOLI: I still object to the form. 19 I think it is unclear. 20 A. I don't want to put distances on any of 21 this stuff other than the distances that are already 22 listed in this paragraph 16. 23 If you would ask me to go out and 24 reobserve these transects with the purpose of 25 assigning distances, I would feel comfortable in 565 1 doing that. I do not feel comfortable doing that 2 sitting here in this room. 3 Q. Why is that? 4 A. Because these are observations, 5 observations based on -- no matter how many times you 6 have been out on a field trip or examined these 7 particular parameters, when somebody asks you to be 8 very precise about a distance or putting -- assigning 9 a number to something, I just feel more comfortable 10 in being able to reobserve that and reaffirm my 11 previously held opinions. 12 Q. What if we don't put a precise distance on 13 it, what if we just put a relative or imprecise 14 distance on it, could you do it then? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. It 16 has all been asked and answered. 17 A. Meaning northern end versus terminus of 18 the transect, that would be the only distances I 19 would be willing to put on them at this time. 20 Q. And not for the distances between, say, .5 21 kilometers and 12 kilometers south? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What about with respect to Eleocharis, 24 what was the alteration along the transect of 25 Eleocharis? 566 1 A. It was again an absence or a -- it was 2 being out-competed by the Panicum apparently in these 3 environments and you didn't see very much of it at 4 all. 5 I don't know how to say, it is density, 6 maybe, or occurrence, would be the most definite 7 parameter. 8 Q. Again, you are saying that for the 9 Eleocharis you noticed this absence of it where you 10 thought it should have been half a kilometer south of 11 S-12C in the open water marshes, is that correct? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 13 A. I believe I just stated that the 14 Eleocharis was predominant in areas where you would 15 expect it to be predominant in the open water marshes 16 and control areas, non-altered pristine areas, and 17 that it is very evident that it was not as 18 predominant, or absent, if you will, in the areas in 19 the northern part of the transect within a half 20 kilometer. 21 Q. And where was it predominant along this 22 transect? 23 A. Eleocharis? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. It was definitely predominant at the 567 1 southern terminus of the transect. 2 Q. And again, I take it you don't want to 3 make any -- you are not in a position to draw any 4 conclusions based on your observations about its 5 relative presence or abundance between .5 kilometers 6 and 12 kilometers south of S-12C, is that correct? 7 A. Not sitting here in this room today, no, 8 no. 9 Q. And what about periphyton, what was the 10 alteration of periphyton along this transect? 11 A. Didn't the question just go into that 12 before? 13 Q. You are talking about the colors? 14 A. The colors and those particular types of 15 things. 16 Q. How far south of the 12C did this color 17 phenomenon extend? 18 MS. PONZOLI: Objection, it has been asked 19 and answered. 20 Dr. Jones, you don't have to continue 21 trying to make up answers for Mr. Jackson. If you 22 answered it and you are relying upon your former 23 answer, that is sufficient. 24 Mr. Jackson is engaging in a form of 25 questioning that is wearing you down trying to get an 568 1 answer he wants somewhere along the line and he is 2 going to continue doing it, I guess if he did it for 3 hours we would have to go to the judge but I don't 4 think he will do it for hours. So I want you to 5 understand you don't have to answer a question that 6 you have already answered. 7 Q. I don't want you to make up any answers to 8 questions, I am only asking you to tell me about your 9 observations that you are reporting in the first 10 sentence of this paragraph, and I realize you may not 11 have reported all of your observations in this 12 paragraph but I am going to ask you about all of your 13 observations whether they are reported here or not. 14 MS. PONZOLI: I believe you have done 15 that, Mr. Jackson. 16 Q. And I will expect you to answer a question 17 unless your attorney instructs you not to answer a 18 question. At least I request you to do that. 19 So what I would like to ask you is, the 20 periphyton community according to you in this 21 paragraph was greatly suppressed in the same area 22 near the S-12C structure, correct? 23 A. Where are you at? 24 Q. I am at the sentence that starts, "Finally 25 it was visually apparent." 569 1 (Pause) 2 MS. PONZOLI: And the question? Do you 3 have a question, Mr. Jackson? 4 MR. JACKSON: Yes, I just asked the 5 question. 6 MS. PONZOLI: Would you read it back, 7 please. 8 (The question referred to was 9 thereupon read by the reporter 10 as above recorded) 11 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 12 A. I believe that it is not the proper 13 context. We are talking about Utricularia and 14 specifically here would be referring to the bladders 15 which I described before that form a large component 16 of the structural, not necessarily species wise, 17 component of the periphyton community that we find in 18 Shark River Slough. 19 Q. I believe earlier you testified there was 20 something about the color of the periphyton that 21 indicated to you whether or not we were in a nutrient 22 enriched area, is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you observed that phenomenon along 25 this transect, is that correct? 570 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How far south did that phenomenon extend 3 along this transect? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 5 A. I don't feel comfortable in estimating 6 that distance at this time. 7 Q. Did you notice a point along the transect 8 where the periphyton did not seem to be affected by 9 nutrient enrichment? 10 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 11 A. Yes, but I don't know what that point is, 12 to put a distance on it. 13 Q. Let's back up to look at the sawgrass 14 height. 15 You say that the sawgrass was five 5 to 7 16 feet high in the first half kilometer south of 12C so 17 I guess to some degree we have anchored down that 18 distance south. 19 What about east and west, how far did that 20 phenomenon extend east and west of this transect? 21 A. I again don't really want to estimate 22 distances. We didn't do a survey to see what these 23 effects are. 24 I think that within that half kilometer 25 you could probably go just about anywhere especially 571 1 where there are culverts or input structure and find 2 sawgrass that is very anomalous in its growth 3 pattern. 4 Q. That is very anomalous in its growth 5 pattern and you are saying by that it is higher than 6 you would expect, is that the anomaly you are 7 referring to? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What about these other species that we are 10 talking about, for example, the Panicum, how far east 11 and west would that phenomenon extend along this 12 transect just going down as far as half a kilometer 13 south of the S-12C? 14 A. Again I don't really want to go east and 15 west from this thing. These are observations 16 obviously but I made more trips to certain areas to 17 the Park than I have to others, and around the S-12C 18 structure is where I'm most familiar with and I don't 19 want to try to extend that east and west too far. 20 Q. Would it be safe to say you wouldn't be 21 confident in reporting the same phenomenon based on 22 your observations east and west of that structure? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 24 question. 25 A. I haven't necessarily made as many 572 1 observations east and west of that structure to 2 describe it in that terminology. I have certainly 3 made enough visits north and south to describe it the 4 way it has been here. But I don't think that we want 5 to go speculating too far about what is happening in 6 an east and west direction. We can go out and 7 observe it right now if we want to. 8 Q. So you are not denying that the phenomenon 9 occurs east and west, it is just your observations 10 haven't created a sufficient basis for you to report 11 it as you did in this paragraph, would that be 12 accurate? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 14 A. It does happen east and west. I'm not 15 confident in putting a distance onto it. You asked 16 me how far, you didn't ask me, does it go east or 17 does it go west. 18 Q. So it does go east or west but you 19 couldn't say how far? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And that is because of a lack of 22 observations or is that because of a lack of 23 appearance of this effect? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 25 A. It's a lack of my confidence in how far a 573 1 kilometer or two kilometers is east and how far the 2 distances are west. I don't want to place precise 3 values on that. It is not a lack of observations. 4 Q. So you feel like you do have enough 5 observations to be able to say how far these 6 phenomena exist east and west, just a matter of being 7 able to calculate the distance in the field? 8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 9 A. I would like to, say, for instance, fly 10 over the area now with the idea of looking east and 11 west extent of these particular types of 12 observations, but I do think I have enough 13 information in my mind to realize that they happen to 14 distances east and west of this particular transect. 15 Q. So in addition to the hundreds of field 16 visits that you report in the first sentence of 17 paragraph 16 you would need to make at least one more 18 to be able to make that determination for the 19 distance east and west that this phenomenon exists? 20 A. You would want precise numbers on 21 distances this extends east and west, that would be 22 correct. 23 Q. What about numbers that are as precise as 24 the ones reported in paragraph 16? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 574 1 A. That is north and south. There is a lot 2 of different between moving east and west across the 3 Shark River Slough. 4 Q. I guess I am a little bit confused. I 5 can't figure out why you were able to determine a 6 distance north and south but can't determine a 7 distance east and west. Is there a reason why that 8 would be true? 9 A. The distances north and south we have 10 actually calculated, I know now where the stations 11 were and I know I was standing at a half a kilometer, 12 I know that I was standing at 12 kilometers or 13 approximately that distance. 14 Moving east and west, I basically -- I 15 don't have any idea of the precise distances so I 16 need a reference point to make that in distances. 17 Q. So the distances that are reported in 18 paragraph 16 are based on the stations that were 19 reported in, say, Mr. Scheidt's field notes? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 21 question. 22 Q. And that someone calculated based on the 23 Loran coordinates? 24 A. The half kilometer which I stated was a 25 conservative estimate of that is within the distance 575 1 frame of this observation. 2 Q. Just so I understand your testimony 3 correctly, when you are unwilling to or unable or for 4 whatever reason not going to testify about how far 5 south along this transect these phenomena that you 6 report here extend, that's not because you don't know 7 where the stations are along that transect, is that 8 correct? 9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Is it because the phenomena tend to fade 12 away after a while, they are not as observable as you 13 get further south? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 15 A. There is a, I don't know whether I want to 16 call it fading away as you have used, there is 17 definitely a point on the transect when it is no 18 longer observable. That point I don't know, what it 19 is. 20 I can feel confident as an ecologist going 21 out and looking at something within a half a 22 kilometer and saying this is a significant difference 23 in what I observed 12 kilometers or 16 kilometers 24 into the Park. 25 I do not feel that I'm in the position to 576 1 judge plants, periphyton or anything, from the 2 standpoint of rating that effect along the particular 3 transect. 4 These are distances that I would feel 5 comfortable saying that basically anyone could 6 observe these same effects. 7 Q. Again, just so I understand your testimony 8 correctly, what you are really doing is comparing the 9 phenomenon that you observed at the half kilometer 10 point and you are comparing it with phenomenon that 11 you observed at the 12 kilometer point and you are 12 saying these are very different, would that be a fair 13 summary of what you are reporting here? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 15 you mischaracterized his testimony. 16 A. I don't believe I said precisely that but 17 those are my two reference points. I am comparing 18 two reference points. And I would rather allow 19 someone who is more botanically oriented than I to 20 make the judgments between those two sites, reference 21 points. 22 Q. But the information you are trying to 23 convey to the judge in this paragraph is really what 24 you are trying to emphasize and this I assume is why 25 you are unwilling to make comparisons between, say, 577 1 half a kilometer and one kilometer is because you see 2 a dramatic change between your observations at half a 3 kilometer and your observations at 12 kilometers, is 4 that correct; and it may not be so dramatic between 5 half a kilometer and 1 kilometer, am I getting the 6 drift of what you are trying to say? 7 A. I wouldn't say it is not so dramatic 8 between a half and one or a half and .6 or a half and 9 three but I am saying my reference points are half 10 kilometer and the end of the transect, and that, as 11 you put it, the judge would be able to observe those 12 same effects himself. 13 Q. And the effects might gradually disappear 14 or not be as observable as you moved south along the 15 transect, is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In the third sentence of paragraph 16 18 where you say, the macrophyte and algal communities 19 that you observed along this transect were altered as 20 compared to the macrophyte and algal communities in 21 pristine areas of the Park, how far north on this 22 transect do the pristine areas of the Park extend? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 24 A. It seems to be just the opposite of what 25 we were discussing. 578 1 Q. No, I am not asking you about the 2 communities of plants, I am just asking you about the 3 pristine areas as you defined them in this paragraph. 4 How far north does the pristine area extend along 5 this transect? 6 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection. 7 A. I do think that is the same question, I 8 mean, for defining pristine areas as a component of 9 plant communities, as we have here, then you are 10 asking me the same question, because of the way it is 11 used here in this paragraph. 12 Q. In this paragraph pristine areas refers to 13 plant communities then? 14 A. I believe I stated before that it referred 15 to plant communities, discussions that I have had 16 with other people in the Park, and now it is hard for 17 me to separate out the fact that I also know, what in 18 fact total phosphorus values are for these particular 19 areas. 20 Q. What did you mean to convey to the court 21 when you used the words pristine areas, did you mean 22 both the total phosphorus and plant communities? 23 MS. PONZOLI: Object to form; asked and 24 answered. 25 A. I believe I would be referring to pristine 579 1 area and I don't think I would have qualified it in 2 any way, shape or form other than to be a pristine 3 area that anyone would define as such, depending on 4 what characteristics they wanted to use. 5 Q. Which ones did you want to use? 6 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 7 A. I wanted to use a pristine area of the 8 Park which is that I would say that my comparisons in 9 this thing were made as it is stated in here within 10 the first half kilometer and then at the southern 11 terminus of that. I don't want to put a definition 12 on what pristine area is by total phosphorus or any 13 of the other analyses that I have. 14 Q. Could you put a definition on it based on 15 total phosphorus? 16 A. I believe that we have said that the 17 effects of total phosphorus in the soils extend at 18 least 6 kilometers and I wouldn't want to go any 19 further than that. 20 Q. That would define an impacted area but how 21 would you define a pristine area in terms of total 22 phosphorus in the soil? 23 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 24 A. I don't know that I have ever thought of 25 doing that, defining a pristine area. I have 580 1 certainly -- my background of pristine area, from the 2 nutrient dosing site and the terminus of this 3 transect. I don't think I have ever thought of 4 defining an area as such. 5 There certainly could be areas where 6 certain other perturbations may have occurred, 7 man-made perturbations that you wouldn't call 8 pristine, it would have no impact on total 9 phosphorus. 10 So if I could think of situations like 11 that, I can't use total phosphorus as being the sole 12 defining points of what pristine is. 13 Q. You referred to the nutrient dosing site 14 in the southern end of the transect, I believe, as a 15 potential reference point for pristine. 16 If we use that as the basis for defining 17 what a pristine area is, could you tell me, just tell 18 me whether you can or not, could you tell me how far 19 north up the transect that pristine area extends? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. No, I couldn't. 22 Q. I believe you testified before lunch that 23 the alteration that you are summarizing in paragraph 24 16, you don't mean that that alteration occurred over 25 time, at least not based on your observations, is 581 1 that correct? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 3 A. What I am referring to in paragraph 16 4 does not refer to an alteration that I observed, one 5 spot where I was on at one time and then the next 6 time I was there there was something else at this 7 particular change, successive change in community. 8 Q. So these characteristics that you are 9 reporting at the .5 point on the transect north and 10 at the 12 kilometer point on the transect south, 11 those did not change over the five year period that 12 you observed this transect? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. You 14 mischaracterized his answers completely. 15 A. I won't say that the communities are 16 identical. There were no changes. 17 I mean there have been fires out there, 18 there have been a lot of things that have occurred 19 over the time, five year time period. 20 The gross changes that I am referring to 21 in paragraph 16 which are very evident at half a 22 kilometer and at 12 kilometers, are not something 23 that I tied a time function into. I did not look at 24 that from year one to year five. 25 Q. But did the plant communities change over 582 1 that five year period along those two segments of the 2 transect? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 4 answered. 5 A. The plant community, the community 6 structure or communities themselves meaning species 7 that are in the communities, or do you mean like the 8 way I used communities here in paragraph 16? 9 Q. How about the way you used it in paragraph 10 16? 11 A. I would have to say under that definition 12 over five years that, no, there have not been changes 13 that I have observed. 14 Q. And that includes fires, you mentioned 15 fire, the fire didn't change these plant communities? 16 A. It obviously changed the height of the 17 sawgrass that was there considering it burned it down 18 but when it grew back it grew back to the same 19 density and height. 20 (Pause) 21 Q. Is it possible that those plant 22 communities that you observed in the segment of the 23 transect say between .5 kilometers south of 12C and 24 12C, is it possible that those plant communities have 25 stayed the same over a long period of time? 583 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. Anything 2 is possible. 3 A. That, you know, I mean, I have been here 4 for five years and what I have seen down here with 5 the types of environmental changes we have had, that, 6 you know, anything is possible. 7 I don't have any idea what the length of 8 these community changes existed before. 9 Q. So your observations could not exclude the 10 possibilities that those plant communities were more 11 or less the same ten years ago? 12 A. Anything is possible. 13 Q. So the answer to that question is yes? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form, counsel. 15 You are arguing with the witness. 16 A. I would have to say yes. I don't have any 17 idea of what happened prior to my coming to South 18 Florida. 19 Q. And the same would be true for 20 years 20 ago? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. You are 22 continuing to argue with the witness. 23 A. Pretty soon you will get to the point 24 where I wasn't old enough to even come to Florida, so 25 I don't know -- you can keep on going backwards and 584 1 obviously something that I couldn't observe in the 2 past. 3 There is a point, however, where there 4 would be, say, for instance, perhaps other people's 5 data that would indicate what the communities were 6 there and I could go into the literature base and say 7 this is significantly different. 8 I don't know if that data exists or not 9 but that would be the only way I could base my 10 opinion. I don't know what happened one day before 11 the first time I ever went out in this system. 12 Q. I take it from your answer you have not 13 consulted such a data base over time? 14 A. I have not. 15 Q. If you were going to try to determine 16 whether or not the community had changed before you 17 observed it how would you go about doing that? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. What if you wanted to try and determine 20 whether or not the community was changing over time, 21 how would you do that? 22 A. My being outside of my area of 23 examination, I would not -- I would assume that 24 somebody who is a botanist or whatnot would probably 25 go on and do a time series, in other words, sample 585 1 the same site year after year and see whether there 2 were any changes that were taking place. 3 Q. Do you know whether anyone has done those 4 type of studies? 5 A. In the Park? 6 Q. Anywhere in the Everglades? 7 A. I believe there has been some work done by 8 South Florida Water Management District. I am not 9 sure about that, though. 10 Q. What about in the Park? 11 A. I don't know for sure. You would have to 12 ask one of the botanists whether they have done any 13 stuff like that. This is not something that I am 14 aware of, though. 15 Q. But to your knowledge the answer is no, 16 you are not aware of any, is that what you said? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 18 A. I can't say to my knowledge the answer 19 isn't really anything because they have botanists 20 there, I assume their botanists are interested in 21 those types of questions. But I don't have any idea 22 whether it has or hasn't been done. It is not a yes 23 or no situation. 24 Q. How did you measure the heights of 25 sawgrass that you are reporting in the fourth 586 1 sentence of this paragraph that starts, "Whereas 2 sawgrass was 2 to 4 feet high," how did you measure 3 the height of the sawgrass? 4 A. 2 to 4 and approximately 5 to 7. 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I have a pretty good idea how tall I am. 7 Q. You walked out there and stood next to the 8 plants? 9 A. Quite often that was the best way to do 10 it. I am six feet tall precisely. 11 Q. And did you measure each plant? 12 A. I have a tape measure in my pocket that I 13 carry with me all the time. I have measured plants 14 out in the marsh, okay. Most of the time it is a lot 15 easier to say 2 to 4 feet tall or 5 to 7 feet high by 16 simply going out and seeing where it comes up to you. 17 It is an observation. I would be willing to go out 18 there with a tape measure today and I would come up 19 with the same results. 20 Q. You did measure individual plants though, 21 is that correct? 22 A. I measured individual tussocks or the 23 height of them. 24 I have done it both in the way of walking 25 into the area and seeing how far the stuff towers 587 1 over me and I also used my tape measure on occasion 2 when I was asked, can you put any numbers down on 3 this, I mean, 5 to 7 or 2 to 4, I did that by using 4 my tape measure. 5 Q. Were the heights of the individual plants 6 fairly uniform? 7 A. I would say you could find any height that 8 you wanted to in these particular areas depending 9 upon what life stage it is in. It doesn't mean that 10 you are going to find anything that is seven feet 11 tall, say, for instance, at 12 kilometers south in 12 the area. You would have to go to an area that had 13 elevated nutrients or perhaps much sustained 14 hydroperiods to find the very tall sawgrass in that 15 area. 16 Q. Well, if the life stage of the plant may 17 influence its height, how did you know that you 18 weren't observing variations in height caused by, 19 say, the fact that the area had been burned over? 20 A. The plant grows relatively rapidly. I 21 obviously didn't make any measurements or wouldn't be 22 willing to say it is 5 to 7 feet tall when an area 23 had just been burned and there was nothing standing 24 above the ground. 25 Again, this is a general observation. If 588 1 we were to go out there today, the sawgrass would be 2 5 to 7 feet tall in the northern end of Shark River 3 Slough and it would be 2 to 4 feet in the area 12 4 kilometers south. 5 Q. And these heights that you are reporting 6 for sawgrass, those would be the heights of say the 7 tallest individuals? 8 A. I don't really want to say it is the 9 tallest. There might be one that is 8 feet or 9 10 feet, I don't know, and there might be some that are 11 smaller consequently. It would be something you 12 wouldn't have to look relatively hard to find 5 to 7 13 feet or 2 to 4 feet high sawgrass. 14 Q. But there would be individuals of shorter 15 height mixed in there? 16 A. I just said that. 17 Q. Did you make any effort to determine the 18 proportion of shorter individuals to the ones that 19 you are reporting here? 20 A. No. 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 22 Q. You did not measure the sawgrass height 23 between half a kilometer south and 12 kilometers 24 south of the S-12C structure, is that what you said? 25 A. I said I didn't put any numbers on it, for 589 1 the purpose of this paragraph 16. I don't remember 2 if I have ever measured stuff out along that distance 3 or not. 4 Q. You said, I believe, that you were asked 5 to put numbers. Who asked you to put numbers for 6 sawgrass height? 7 A. For this, I was asked by people in the 8 Department of Justice in helping me prepare my 9 declaration. 10 Q. I don't want to get into any legal reasons 11 they may have asked you to do that but what 12 scientific reasons would there have been asking you 13 to do that if you know? 14 A. I don't think there were any scientific 15 reasons. I think the reasons were more just from the 16 standpoint it is easier to understand if I put 17 numbers on it rather than saying it was taller 12 18 kilometers than it was -- I am sorry, taller within 19 the first half kilometer than it was at 12 20 kilometers. 21 Q. In the sentence that starts, "Also, 22 whereas open water marshes in Shark River Slough," do 23 you see where I am in paragraph 16, about halfway 24 down? 25 A. Yes. 590 1 Q. There is a sentence: "Also, whereas open 2 water marshes in Shark River Slough are normally 3 dominated by the plant species Eleocharis," I take it 4 that abbreviation means species, "the open water 5 marshes in the first half kilometer south of S-12C 6 were dominated by the plant species Panicum," again I 7 assume you mean Panicum species with that 8 abbreviation there. 9 And with respect to that sentence, I take 10 it that this, the first half of the sentence with 11 respect to Shark River Slough, this is based on your 12 observations? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. This normal domination that you are 15 referring to? 16 A. It would be based on my observations and 17 my opinions based on what other people have told me 18 and how I formulated this. Certainly my observations 19 played a role. 20 Q. Your observations over the last five years 21 in Shark River Slough? 22 A. Sometime within the last five years. I am 23 not sure whether I first came to this system that I 24 was making the same types of observations that I am 25 now. 591 1 Q. What other people's opinions were you 2 relying on that you just referred to? 3 A. Well, when you are in a position like I am 4 and sort of wanting to get an idea of the general 5 ecology of the area you speak to a large number of 6 people about what exists, you read material, material 7 put out by South Florida Water Management District 8 and just conversations with probably Bill Loftus 9 would have been the most -- the person I talked to 10 most about this, prior to my meeting Bob Doren. 11 Q. Prior to your meeting Bob Doren? 12 A. Bob Doren. 13 Q. I am sorry, I don't understand that. 14 A. I spoke to Bill, I didn't meet Bob Doren 15 until later. 16 Q. Loftus was your source before Doren? 17 A. Loftus was my source before Doren. I had 18 conversations with a lot of people over this period 19 of time. 20 Q. What sources did you look at besides 21 published sources, I believe you referred to 22 materials, what materials did you consult? 23 A. Meaning -- I think it all would be 24 published materials or reports. 25 Q. Like what? 592 1 A. Like a Park report or a South Florida 2 Water Management District document or that type of 3 thing. 4 Q. Can you remember any specifically? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What species of Eleocharis are you 7 referring to? 8 A. Pushing it I would say probably Cellulosa, 9 but I am not real sure of that. 10 Q. But you are sure it was Eleocharis? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. With respect to your statements about 13 Utricularia, you say in the next sentence after the 14 one we just read, "It was visually apparent in the 15 same area near the S-12C structure that the plant 16 species Utricularia, which normally forms a major 17 component of the periphyton community in Shark River 18 Slough, was greatly suppressed." 19 And my question goes to the parenthetical 20 which says, "which normally forms the major component 21 of the periphyton community in the Shark River 22 Slough," that's what I want to focus on. 23 Would it be safe to say the same general 24 sources of information were relied on by you as far 25 as what the normal component of the periphyton 593 1 community in Shark River Slough is? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 3 A. This would be much more based upon my own 4 observations and that means it would be, that I have 5 collected a lot of samples in these particular areas 6 and one of the first apparent things that you notice 7 when you collect water samples in these areas is the 8 quantity of the Utricularia species, which I don't 9 know which species it is, some species found 10 throughout the transect. But this particular species 11 I am referring to here you see and visualize its 12 presence. 13 This is probably based a lot more on my 14 own personal opinion or personal observations than 15 other people's. 16 Q. As opposed to the Eleocharis we were just 17 talking about in a comparative sense? 18 A. In a comparative sense I didn't know how 19 to identify Eleocharis, believe it or not; as soon as 20 I knew what Utricularia was, I worked with 21 Utricularia in other environments before coming to 22 Florida. 23 Q. Is Utricularia a submerged plant? 24 A. The flowering portion of it is emergent in 25 many of the species, many of the species have 594 1 emergent portions that are very similar to, like, 2 look like Eleocharis, in fact, but they have bladders 3 along the stems. 4 This particular species with the exception 5 of the flowers I believe you would consider it to be 6 a submerged species. 7 Q. The one you are referring to here is a 8 submerged species? 9 A. The one I am referring to here with the 10 exception of the fruiting structures, the flowers, is 11 a submerged species. 12 Q. In this same sentence, let's refer to 13 another part of the sentence, you say it was visually 14 apparent in the same area and again I take it we are 15 referring to half a kilometer south of 12C, that the 16 plant species Utricularia, and to leave out this 17 parenthetical, was greatly suppressed. 18 What does the word suppressed mean in that 19 sentence? 20 A. It is decreased in its abundance, biomass 21 perhaps would be a better term to use, that way we 22 don't have to say were they really small plants or 23 big ones and how many were there but if we look at 24 biomass, it was suppressed. 25 Q. But I take it earlier you didn't make any 595 1 objective quantification of its biomass, you didn't 2 attempt anything like that? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 4 A. You mean to determine the biomass was X 5 number of kilograms per meter squared, no, I did not 6 determine that. 7 Q. What was the Utricularia suppressed by, 8 was it suppressed by something? 9 A. I have some general understandings of 10 Utricularia and the role that nutrients play in that. 11 It would be my opinion that it was suppressed by 12 something to do with elevated nutrients and the water 13 in this area but I don't believe I really state that 14 anywhere. 15 Q. But based on the way this sentence is 16 worded, you are saying this suppression was visually 17 apparent? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The fact that it was suppressed by 20 nutrients was apparent? 21 A. No, I said it was greatly suppressed. I 22 didn't say you could observe nutrients out there 23 suppressing this stuff. 24 Q. So how do you know that nutrients are the 25 cause of this great suppression? 596 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. It is 2 asked and answered. 3 A. Do you want me to give you a little bit of 4 what Utricularia is like as a plant species? 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. That may, I don't know that -- Utricularia 7 is a bladder wart, I mentioned that before, and it is 8 a plant species that is normally found in areas that 9 contain either low quantities of phosphorus and 10 nitrogen, principally in the literature is nitrogen 11 limitation, and it has these little bladders on it to 12 collect or capture these microscopic animals, if you 13 will, plankton. And that is supposedly one of the 14 reasons that it exists in low nutrient environments, 15 it is able to achieve sizable biomasses in low 16 nutrient environments because of its ability to 17 obtain nutrients from other sources, specifically 18 nitrogen and phosphorus. 19 Q. What are the other sources? 20 A. The animals it would trap. 21 Q. It eats the animals? 22 A. It eats the animals, a carnivorous plant, 23 if you will. 24 Q. And that's where it gets its nutrients 25 from? 597 1 A. Not all of them but certainly where it 2 gets some of them. 3 Q. So the idea is it doesn't need to get 4 nutrients from the soil like a lot of plants might 5 because it is getting nutrients from animals that it 6 captures, is that what you are saying sort of in 7 layman's terms? 8 A. It has one -- it has an ability to survive 9 and compete very effectively in low nutrient 10 environments because of its additional ability to get 11 nutrients from this alternate source. 12 Q. And is that the basis for your conclusion 13 that the suppression of the Utricularia was caused by 14 the high nutrient levels? 15 A. The conclusion that I just gave you, a few 16 answers back or -- because I don't believe I 17 concluded that anywhere. 18 Q. No, a few answers back. 19 A. That would be the basis of my opinion. 20 Q. If the Utricularia is successful at 21 competing in the low nutrient environment, why would 22 a high nutrient environment lead to its suppression? 23 A. Because it can be out-competed by other 24 organisms. It can be colonized by various algal 25 species and shaded out, if you will or any other of 598 1 the competition factors. It doesn't necessarily mean 2 if you were to take this species and put it in a 3 laboratory and put it with high nutrients there would 4 be anything particularly toxic about those nutrient 5 levels. 6 Q. Is that what happened to the Utricularia a 7 half a kilometer south of S-12C, did other species 8 out-compete it because of high nutrient levels? 9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 10 A. I would say that could be one of the 11 possible explanations. 12 Q. What would some of the other possible 13 explanations be? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you know whether that is in fact what 16 happened to the Utricularia in this area? 17 A. I cannot say that that is a fact, that 18 that is what happened in that particular area. 19 Q. Do you suspect it? 20 A. Yes, I do suspect it. 21 Q. Why do you suspect that that is what 22 happened? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. It 24 has been asked and answered. 25 A. Because when I was describing the nutrient 599 1 in competition that is one of the basic ecological 2 theories, competition survive. 3 Q. What I am getting at aside from the 4 absence of Utricularia, why would you suspect it was 5 the victim of competition by other organisms in this 6 area? 7 MS. PONZOLI: Read the question back again 8 please. 9 (The question referred to was 10 thereupon read by the reporter 11 as above recorded) 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. We are going awfully far into a conclusion 14 that I am drawing here at this moment, at this time. 15 I have -- I gave the general ideas of 16 nutrient limitation of this plant species, ability to 17 compete. I don't really know that -- 18 Q. I am not trying to pull you into an area 19 that you don't feel comfortable in. I got the 20 impression one of the reasons why you think it was 21 the victim of a high nutrient area is because it is 22 not there anymore, right, it is just not there? So 23 that is one reason why it might have been the victim 24 of the nutrient elevation, is that correct? Is that 25 one of the reasons why you are saying? 600 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 2 A. I have difficulty with saying precisely 3 that in this context because the absence is what I 4 noted. 5 I can speculate as to what may be causes 6 of that absence, okay, but I can't really, having not 7 observed any Utricularia dying in that particular 8 spot but rather the absence of this particular 9 species, is what I base that on. 10 So you are asking me to go one step 11 further. 12 Q. No, I understand and I realize this is 13 just speculation. I am just curious whether you can 14 identify any other factor that would support that 15 suspicion other than the fact that Utricularia wasn't 16 there anymore, would there be any other factors that 17 would support that suspicion? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 19 question. 20 A. It is a very common argument to be used 21 with this particular species as to why it obtains 22 predominance in certain environments and not, using 23 this relationship between nutrients. 24 I really don't want to go and try and tie 25 that to the northern end of Shark River Slough but 601 1 that was my suspicion. 2 Q. I believe you said that or at least I 3 thought I heard you say there could be other factors 4 that could have caused or that could be the 5 explanation for the absence of Utricularia there, is 6 that correct? 7 A. I am sure that there are others who could 8 think of other reasons for it not to be there. 9 Q. What about you, are you aware of any other 10 factors that could cause it not to be there besides 11 nutrients? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 13 answered. 14 A. I could think of an awful lot of reasons 15 for anything not to be in this particular area, that 16 doesn't mean that they are legitimate thoughts. 17 I mean, you know, there are people that 18 claim that Martians land in places and leave funny 19 pools in Nebraska. They may want to form their 20 opinion on, I wouldn't want to do it. I could think 21 of equally absurd reasons or I could possibly give it 22 a lot of thought and come up maybe with some more 23 likely or perhaps even maybe an understandable reason 24 but that is not something I have done. The most 25 obvious would be this nutrient relationship. 602 1 Q. Let's leave the not legitimate reasons 2 out, aside from the nutrient enrichment are you aware 3 of any other factors that could have caused the 4 absence of Utricularia in this area? 5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 6 question. 7 Q. Would drought be a possible reason why it 8 was not present? 9 A. If I compare it to the two areas, that 10 would be the 12 kilometer and the area there, they 11 both had extremely dry times, in fact, the area 12 where -- no, I wouldn't want to say that. 13 I don't know whether it is a plausible 14 explanation or not. I would not use it myself. 15 Q. So the only plausible explanation that you 16 can come up with is the nutrient enrichment? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 18 answered. 19 A. The only explanation that I am willing to 20 speculate on at this time is nutrient one. I would 21 have to put equal emphasis on understanding 22 hydroperiod and other effects that would possibly 23 affect a species in that way. 24 Q. But your observations can't exclude those 25 other factors? 603 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 2 A. My observations can't exclude Martians so 3 I can't -- you know, anybody can make another 4 hypothesis as to why this is there or it is not 5 there. 6 In my observations I wouldn't be able to 7 exclude any of those hypotheses. 8 Q. Utricularia is not itself periphyton, 9 right? 10 A. I don't know what the definition of 11 periphyton is to tell you, from that standpoint. 12 Like I said, the bladders, the spent 13 bladders and certain of the senescent parts of the 14 plant are floating on the surface and form part of 15 the structural component of periphyton in certain of 16 these areas. But I don't think you would consider it 17 itself to be a species of periphyton. 18 Q. That's what I was getting at because in 19 your parenthetical you say Utricularia normally forms 20 a major component of the periphyton community and I 21 take it what you mean by that, it forms a platform 22 for the periphyton species? 23 A. The spent bladders are often floating or 24 filled with gas or floating in and a principal 25 component of that is a structural component. I 604 1 personally would not consider that to be one of the 2 species that you would identify as being a periphyton 3 species but rather a component of the periphyton 4 meaning a structural component. 5 Q. In this area south of the S-12C structure 6 you are talking about in this sentence, I take it 7 that is an area half a kilometer south of the S-12C 8 structure was the periphyton community also greatly 9 suppressed? 10 A. It was altered. 11 Q. And that is the alteration that you 12 described before with respect to the periphyton? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And that's this color change? 15 A. Color and just, you know, different -- 16 color I guess is the most predominant thing. 17 Q. The next sentence refers to Panicum and 18 you say, "The presence of the Panicum species that I 19 observed is commonly enhanced" -- to leave out the 20 parenthetical -- "The presence of the Panicum species 21 that I observed was commonly enhanced in nutrient 22 enriched marsh." 23 I believe that is what you are saying in 24 this sentence with respect to Panicum, so which 25 Panicum species are commonly enhanced in nutrient 605 1 enriched marshes? 2 MS. PONZOLI: Would you read that back 3 please. 4 MR. JACKSON: I will withdraw the question 5 and let me ask this question instead. 6 Q. What species of Panicum that you have 7 observed are commonly enhanced in nutrient enriched 8 marshes? 9 A. What species of Panicum? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I do not know what species of Panicum, 12 Panicum species. 13 Q. What about the Eleocharis species, what 14 species of Eleocharis is commonly suppressed in 15 nutrient enriched marshes? 16 A. As with the Panicum, I believe the 17 Eleocharis I am not referring to any particular 18 species, just Eleocharis species. 19 Q. And the same would be true for 20 Utricularia, you couldn't identify or you don't want 21 to identify any specific species as being commonly 22 suppressed in nutrient enriched marshes? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 24 A. I would not -- I don't know on Panicum and 25 Eleocharis all of the various species. Utricularia I 606 1 have a little bit better idea of some of the 2 different species by common name but I don't -- I 3 still wouldn't want to put anymore than what I have 4 said in paragraph 16. 5 Q. These names that are here that are 6 underlined in this sentence in paragraph 16, I am 7 talking about the ones that starts, "The presence of 8 Panicum," these names that are underlined here, these 9 are generic, is that what you call generic names? 10 A. They are genera. 11 Q. Genera. So is this statement, for 12 example, for Panicum, "The presence of Panicum that I 13 observed is commonly enhanced in nutrient enriched 14 marshes," is that true for the entire Panicum genera? 15 Is that what you call it? 16 A. I do not know whether that is. I don't 17 know how many species of Panicum there are. 18 Q. What about for the Eleocharis and 19 Utricularia, are the statements in this true for the 20 entire genus of Eleocharis and Utricularia? 21 A. Again, I wouldn't -- I don't think you can 22 use them as global terms for the whole genus. The 23 whole genus contains species that aren't even found 24 in Florida. 25 Q. With respect to this same sentence, what 607 1 is the source of your information with respect to 2 this statement that Panicum is commonly enhanced in 3 nutrient enriched marshes? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. This would be based on observations of 7 what occurred at the nutrient dosing site and also in 8 discussions with the people I've already mentioned. 9 Q. What occurred at the nutrient dosing site 10 that supports that statement? 11 A. Panicum came in in the channels that had 12 received large doses of nitrogen and phosphorus, 13 Utricularia disappeared and the Eleocharis was 14 smothered out. There was not much Eleocharis in 15 those particular areas. 16 Q. Do you know which species these phenomena 17 occurred in in the channels in the dosing study? 18 A. I assume there is information on that. I 19 don't have any information. The reason species was 20 used in paragraph 16 and throughout the document was 21 to point out that, again I'm not a person to make 22 those types of botanical decisions. I can observe 23 these things the way anyone else can. 24 And we could have just -- I believe that 25 that Panicum is panic grass -- we could just as 608 1 easily have said that as putting down Panicum 2 species. I don't know what Eleocharis is called, 3 Utricularia I told you is bladder wart. 4 Q. So we can substitute the term panic grass 5 for Panicum and bladder wart for Utricularia in 6 reading paragraph 16? 7 A. I am telling you I used them, those are 8 examples of common names for these species. 9 I think panic grass is Panicum. I am not 10 sure. It sounds good anyway. I didn't use it in 11 that context because this is a more or -- it is a 12 better way to do it as far as I am concerned. 13 Q. And these other people that you spoke to 14 who provided you with information that supported the 15 statements in this sentence, were they also relying 16 on the nutrient dosing study? 17 A. I would think that they have more 18 background in the areas of botany and whatnot to have 19 more to base their opinion on than just the nutrient 20 dosing. I am certain that was also a portion of 21 their statements. 22 Q. And this is Loftus and Doren, I take it? 23 A. Probably Scheidt. 24 Q. Mr. Scheidt too? 25 A. Yes. 609 1 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly, 2 for both of these sentences in which you discuss 3 suppression of various species or genera of plants, 4 you did not make any attempt to quantify the amount 5 of vegetation that was suppressed, is that correct? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form, asked and 7 answered. 8 A. I believe I stated I didn't go out and 9 determine kilograms per square meter or things like 10 that. 11 Q. Or any other objective measurement? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. Any other measurement that you tie a 14 number to. 15 Q. And the same would be true for the plant 16 species that were enhanced, you did not make any 17 numeric or quantitative measurement of those species? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. He has 19 already answered what he did. 20 Q. Is that correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. With respect to these species that were 23 either suppressed or enhanced in your observation, 24 did you perform a replicable systematic sampling 25 program? 610 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object. 2 A. If I didn't get numbers on it I doubt very 3 highly -- we are talking about things that I made 4 visits to the Park and based on these types of 5 things, these are observations. You don't generally 6 go out and do a random number of observations, apply 7 some statistics to that. 8 Q. You could not because you don't have 9 numbers, right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Did you consult with a botanist when you 12 prepared this paragraph in your affidavit? 13 A. I don't believe I did for preparation of 14 this particular paragraph. 15 Q. Did you show it to a botanist and ask if 16 it was accurately drafted? 17 A. I don't believe I did. 18 Q. In this same paragraph, the next to the 19 last sentence you say that it is your opinion that 20 "the growth patterns and community structures of the 21 vegetation in the area in Everglades National Park 22 extending half a kilometer south of the S-12 water 23 delivery structures are abnormal." 24 Can you tell me what you mean by the word 25 abnormal there? 611 1 A. Different than background, different than 2 the area 12 kilometers south. 3 Q. I take it this statement is true for the 4 S-12C structure because that's where the transect is, 5 right? 6 A. I think this is true for all of the S-12 7 structures with the exception of maybe A and B to the 8 extent of it, and F, C and D. But the S-12C is 9 certainly the place where I have the most experience. 10 Q. And your statement that it is true below 11 the S-12D is based on observations in that area too, 12 as well? 13 A. I have been to the S-12D. 14 Q. But not as many observations? 15 A. Not as many observations. 16 Q. But if you went out there today, say, or I 17 went out there today, are you saying that I would see 18 about the same phenomenon below the S-12D structure 19 that you are reporting below the S-12C structure? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. A week ago or two weeks ago. I don't know 22 what is there today. It could be burning for all I 23 know but I would think the answer would be yes. 24 Q. And when you use the words normal and 25 abnormal in this paragraph, and you have done that 612 1 several times, what is it, it means the same thing 2 every time you use it, is that correct? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 4 A. It does to me. I don't know if it does to 5 you or not. 6 Q. Let's take what it means to you. What do 7 you say it means to you? 8 MS. PONZOLI: Objection to form; asked and 9 answered. 10 A. Alter, different than the normal 11 communities, different than that found at 12 12 kilometers. 13 Q. In the community found at the 12 kilometer 14 point is basically the benchmark for normal? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It 16 mischaracterized his answer. 17 A. It is one of the two reference points that 18 I have used in these circumstances. 19 Q. In the last sentence in that paragraph you 20 say, "It is my opinion that this abnormality is 21 caused by elevated levels of nutrients in the water 22 delivered to the Park through the S-12 structure." 23 What does the phrase elevated levels of 24 nutrients in the water mean? 25 A. It means levels of nutrients that are 613 1 higher than background, higher than ambient marsh for 2 those particular structures. Elevated levels of 3 nutrients is really essentially what it means. 4 Q. What are the levels of nutrients in the 5 water at ambient marsh? 6 A. You want me to tell you what numbers they 7 are or -- 8 Q. Is that what you are referring to, numbers 9 here? 10 A. Not necessarily in these numbers. This is 11 a very general statement, I wouldn't want to define 12 right here and now what marsh background is or 13 anything else. 14 I know that if you take and compare the 15 numbers for what comes through the S-12, particularly 16 S-12D and C, that those numbers are higher than the 17 concentrations found in the marsh. 18 Q. If they are higher do they need to be a 19 certain amount higher or just a little bit higher? 20 Do they have to be twice as high as ambient marsh in 21 order for this sentence to be true? 22 A. I wouldn't want to make that call. I 23 would think they would have to be not much higher, 24 you know, just elevated given the nutrient limited 25 situation that it would just take longer for the 614 1 effect to become evident. 2 Q. So this use of the phrase elevated levels 3 of nutrients in this sentence means any amount higher 4 than ambient marsh or background? 5 A. I don't want to say that that sentence 6 means any amount or has a level or anything 7 associated with it. It is my opinion that these 8 abnormal communities are caused by elevated levels of 9 nutrients. I don't really want to put a value and 10 say this was caused by one and a half times higher 11 concentrations or a hundred times higher. 12 Q. So it would not be possible, say, to 13 quantify the level of nutrients at which this 14 abnormality occurs? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. That 16 totally mischaracterizes his testimony. 17 A. I don't think it is not possible to 18 quantify it. It is not possible for me sitting here 19 today to give you a quantitative value for that. 20 Q. That's what I meant, not that it would be 21 impossible to figure it out but you are not able to 22 to place a quantifiable value on this, is that 23 correct? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 25 A. Sitting here today. I mean, if I had 615 1 numbers and stuff sitting in front of me, I might be 2 able to frame it in some sort of a range. 3 Q. What about when you wrote this affidavit, 4 were you able to quantify it at that time? 5 A. I wasn't attempting to at that time. 6 MR. WYCKOFF: Could you read that answer 7 back, please. 8 (The answer referred to was 9 thereupon read by the reporter 10 as above recorded) 11 Q. Which nutrients are you referring to in 12 that sentence? 13 A. I believe the term nutrients was used 14 because we were not referring to either nitrogen or 15 phosphorus specifically but just nutrients in 16 general. 17 It is well-known that nitrogen can also 18 cause community changes. 19 Q. Does this sentence refer to any water 20 quality sampling or data that was taken in water 21 delivered to the Park through the S-12 structures? 22 A. Data that I collected? 23 Q. Anyone. 24 A. Certainly the elevated levels of 25 nutrients, I wouldn't just say that by going out 616 1 there and looking at water with my eyes. I looked at 2 data sets from the USGS and the Park and South 3 Florida Water Management District. 4 Q. What data sets? Can you be more specific? 5 A. I really can't. There is a lot of data. 6 Q. These data sets that you looked at, did 7 they identify levels of nutrients that would be 8 considered elevated? 9 A. I don't believe they did, I mean, as such. 10 In other words, this concentration is elevated. I 11 don't believe they did. I don't know for sure, 12 though. 13 Q. So assigning the term elevated to the 14 levels of nutrients that were in the data sets that 15 you examined, you assigned that term to particular 16 levels? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 18 A. I would and will assign that to the water 19 that is being delivered through S-12D and S-12C but I 20 don't have levels that make that distinction. 21 Elevated doesn't have a value. It doesn't have to 22 have anything that says one and a half or a hundred 23 times. So they were elevated coming through those 24 structures. 25 Q. What about for the ambient or background 617 1 levels of nutrients, did you examine a data set to 2 identify what would have been ambient or background 3 levels of nutrients? 4 A. In formulating this opinion I really can't 5 tell you whether I have or haven't. I have since 6 that time and perhaps before that time seen what 7 would be considered to be ambient marsh background. 8 I have my own data set. 9 It is very hard for me to say what I used 10 in formulating a sentence that just says elevated 11 levels. It doesn't say what concentrations. 12 Q. Let's use your data set then. In your 13 data set what levels of nutrients would be background 14 or ambient marsh? 15 A. Using -- 16 Q. Your data set, the one you just referred 17 to. 18 A. We are not referring to this paragraph 19 anymore? 20 Q. No. 21 A. You just want to know what number I have 22 for ambient background marsh? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. This is using a different method, the 25 ashing method. I come up with value of 9 parts per 618 1 billion. 2 Q. 9 parts per billion? 3 A. 9 parts per billion total phosphorus. 4 Q. What about for other forms of phosphorus? 5 A. The value that is pretty evident for 6 orthophosphate is very, very close to the detection 7 limit. 8 Q. Using that data set and these numbers that 9 you have just given me, this sentence in paragraph 16 10 remains accurate, is that correct? 11 A. Using that data set for marsh background 12 and values I got from publications that statement 13 does not necessarily maintain its accuracy like flow 14 weighted means because of the difference in 15 methodologies used for determining total phosphorus. 16 Q. And what difference would that difference 17 in methodology for determining total phosphorus make? 18 A. I believe we had gone into a bit of 19 discussion about the methods. I am assuming that you 20 are aware of the difference of ashing and persulfate. 21 Q. I remember you described there are 22 different ways to do it but I thought I heard you say 23 because of the difference in methodology it still may 24 not remain accurate and I am wondering why that would 25 make a difference. 619 1 A. I did not say that. If I did I made a 2 mistake. I said comparing those data sets, if you 3 were trying to compare my data set with the data set, 4 that that statement may not be accurate. 5 I didn't say that this sentence was not 6 accurate. Because if I would use my analytical 7 techniques and go out I would measure elevated 8 nutrients and have measured elevated nutrients. 9 Q. And the data set that reflects levels of 10 nutrients in waters delivered to the Park through the 11 S-12 structures, I think you said it came from Water 12 Management District and USGS, that used a different 13 methodology and it might be apples and oranges to 14 compare your methodology to that, is that what you 15 are referring to? 16 A. I think it would be like comparing large 17 oranges to small oranges, not necessarily apples and 18 oranges, but you can use that if you want. 19 Q. Would there be any other reason why you 20 would not want to use your data set to verify the 21 accuracy of this statement in the last sentence of 22 paragraph 16? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 24 think you have understood his answers. 25 A. I believe that you can use my data set, if 620 1 you use both my data set for ambient marsh background 2 and the data set I have for water coming or water at 3 S-12D and C and S-333. 4 Q. To see if I understand this correctly, 5 using your definition of background or ambient marsh 6 from your data set, would you say it is 9 parts per 7 billion total phosphorus, is that correct? Have I 8 got it straight so far? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You are saying, if I understand you 11 correctly in the last sentence of paragraph 16, that 12 levels of nutrients higher than that concentration 13 cause the abnormality that is reported in paragraph 14 16. 15 A. Levels higher than that, yes. 16 Q. And I take it those levels have been 17 measured in this data set that you referred to, USGS 18 and the Water Management District? 19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 20 A. We are changing the methodology. I can 21 use their data set to say that there are elevated 22 levels and I can use my data set to say there are 23 elevated levels. 24 Q. Would you be able to say using your data 25 set for background and using their data set for the 621 1 levels that actually went through the S-12 structures 2 that elevated levels of nutrients have gone through 3 the S-12 structures? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It is a 5 very confused question and probably incapable of 6 being answered. 7 A. I don't really -- 8 Q. Let me ask you this question, have 9 elevated levles of nutrients passed through the S-12 10 structures based on data sets you examined? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You know that because they were higher 13 than 9 parts per billion total phosphorus? 14 A. My analyses have shown that levels higher 15 than 9 parts per billion have passed through the 16 structures. 17 Q. And that's what you mean by elevated 18 levels of nutrients in this sentence? 19 A. I mean what this sentence says. I mean, 20 higher than background and it doesn't matter whether 21 you use my data set or USGS data set or the Park's 22 data set which I believe was created by South Florida 23 Water Management District, that all those data sets 24 within themselves say that elevated levels of 25 nutrients have been delivered to the Park through the 622 1 S-12 structures. 2 Q. Along this S-12C transect have you taken 3 water quality samples? 4 A. I believe, yes, I think you already have 5 one document that has total phosphorus and probably 6 orthophosphate on that transect. 7 Q. In water? 8 A. In water, yes. 9 Q. It looks to me like one document that I 10 can see is RJ 8, would that be what you are referring 11 to? 12 A. Yes. There is total phosphorus and 13 orthophosphorus value too. 14 Q. Were these values, these samples taken 15 more or less at one time, August -- 16 A. The total phosphorus and the 17 orthophosphate were measured I believe on the 6th of 18 August 1990. 19 Q. Have you taken any other water quality 20 sampling along this transect, the 12C transect aside 21 from what is reported in RJ 8? 22 A. I am sure I have taken samples at other 23 times along this transect. I don't know whether it 24 was the transect as such or whether they were used 25 for other calculations. This was simply the most 623 1 complete set I have. 2 Q. Did you or have you ever made any effort 3 to correlate the water quality concentrations of 4 total phosphorus in the water along this transect 5 with the vegetation abnormalities that you report in 6 paragraph 16? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. Could you tell me how it is with respect 9 to this last sentence in paragraph 16, you say, in 10 your opinion this abnormality, and I take it you mean 11 with respect to the community structures and growth 12 patterns, this abnormality is caused by elevated 13 levels of nutrients in the waters delivered to the 14 Park through the S-12 structures. 15 How is that true? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. I don't -- paragraph 16? 18 Q. Yes. I am sorry, let's wait, go back and 19 look at that sentence again before you answer the 20 question. 21 Do you see the sentence there, it is my 22 opinion? 23 (Pause) 24 Q. The last sentence of paragraph 16 says, 25 "It is my opinion that this abnormality is caused by 624 1 elevated levels of nutrients in the water delivered 2 to the Park through the S-12 structures." 3 When you say this abnormality, I assume 4 you are talking about the alteration of growth 5 patterns in community structures that you have 6 summarized previously in paragraph 16, is that 7 correct, is that the abnormality you are talking 8 about? 9 A. I believe so. 10 Q. You say, "this abnormality is caused by 11 elevated levels of nutrients in the water delivered 12 to the Park through the S-12 structures." How is 13 that, how do the nutrients in the water cause this 14 abnormality? 15 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection. 16 A. The nutrients in the water would be a, the 17 source of the nutrients that end up in the soils and 18 are translated on up through these types of things 19 and also affect the various communities. That would 20 be my opinion. 21 Q. How do the nutrient levels in the water 22 passing through the S-12 structures change the open 23 water marsh from a community dominated by Eleocharis 24 to one dominated by Panicum, how does that occur? 25 A. I can't give you specifics on the 625 1 individual steps that occur or how it occurs. We are 2 talking about an observation and an opinion and I 3 will stick with the opinion. It is my opinion that 4 elevated nutrients coming through those structures 5 have altered those communities. 6 Q. But you can't describe how that is 7 occurring? 8 A. The exact mechanism is not -- I could 9 probably speculate on it for about hour and I don't 10 think you want me to do that. 11 Q. Would that also be true with respect to 12 the Eleocharis community that you report here? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 14 A. I believe you just asked me about the 15 abnormalities and referring to that the whole suite 16 of things. 17 Q. How about Panicum, you wouldn't know? 18 A. The whole suite is under the same answer, 19 I believe talking about this abnormality which would 20 encompass all of the above. 21 Q. I believe you testified earlier that your 22 observations are unable to eliminate other potential 23 causes besides nutrients, is that correct? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 25 you have mischaracterized his answer. 626 1 Q. If I did mischaracterize your answer, can 2 you clarify it for me, please? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. I don't believe I said I would be unable 6 to eliminate, I believe I said I would be unable to 7 speculate further. 8 I think there is very strong evidence for 9 the nutrient effect, very good sound ecology for 10 basing my opinion on nutrients. 11 Q. Could your observations eliminate other 12 potential causes for these abnormalities that you 13 report aside from nutrient levels in the water? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form; asked 15 and answered. 16 A. I don't believe that I could eliminate 17 anything. We were talking about spacecraft, dealing 18 with that. 19 Q. Let's not talk about spacecraft, let's 20 talk about something that could happen on earth. 21 A. Anything is possible. 22 Q. So the answer is you can't eliminate those 23 other potential causes? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked 25 asked and answered. 627 1 A. I think my answer is anything is possible. 2 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Jackson, let's take a 3 break. 4 MR. JACKSON: Okay. 5 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 6 after which the following proceedings 7 were had) 8 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the record. 9 BY MR. JACKSON: 10 Q. I thought you said before the break, Dr. 11 Jones, that fire, after fire sawgrass would come back 12 to the same height depending on where it was along 13 this transect, is that correct? 14 A. Not necessarily depending on where it was 15 on the transect but within the half kilometer range 16 and the control area, that has been my general 17 observation, is that I think there before and after 18 fires, and then again, and the sawgrass has achieved 19 the same approximate characteristics in both the 20 locations. 21 Q. I thought you also earlier testified that 22 when there is a fire it causes the release of 23 nutrients from the peat soil, is that correct? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 25 A. When there is a muck fire. There is a 628 1 difference between a muck fire and burning off of 2 vegetation. 3 Q. So the fires you are talking about with 4 respect to the S-12C transect are just vegetation 5 fires, not muck fires? 6 A. Surface fires, yes. 7 Q. Surface fires? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. With respect to the observations of 10 vegetation communities that you have summarized in 11 paragraph 16, did you measure hydroperiod at the time 12 you made any of these observations? 13 A. No. 14 Q. No? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you consult fire records in preparing 17 this paragraph for this affidavit? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Is it possible that a freeze, for example, 20 could affect the normal growth patterns of the 21 vegetation along this transect? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 23 question. 24 A. I believe a freeze can affect vegetation 25 growth patterns anywhere it occurs. 629 1 Q. So did you make any attempt to eliminate 2 that potential cause from the observations that you 3 report in paragraph 16? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What about with respect to the depth of 6 soil to bedrock, could that affect these vegetation 7 communities? 8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 9 A. That is another factor that would affect a 10 communities system. 11 Q. Did you attempt to eliminate that factor 12 in drawing the conclusion in the last sentence of 13 paragraph 16? 14 A. Formally, I did not. 15 Q. What about informally? 16 A. Informally it works the opposite direction 17 from what you would expect, with respect sawgrass in 18 particular, to be taller in areas that have deeper 19 peat, i.e., longer wet periods, it turns out that 20 this is sort of the opposite of what you observe on 21 these extremes in this transect. 22 Q. And I believe you have testified earlier 23 in this deposition that along this transect you 24 encountered areas that were predominated by marl 25 soils as opposed to peat soils, is that correct? 630 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Would that phenomenon have an impact on 3 the vegetation communities along that transect? 4 A. I would assume that it would because the 5 marl soils are formed by communities that are 6 overlying them just as the peat soils are formed by 7 the communities that are formed on top of them, 8 overlying them. 9 Q. I couldn't hear the first part of your 10 answer, I think you said that you would assume that 11 it would? 12 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you read back the 13 answer. 14 (The answer referred to was 15 thereupon read by the reporter 16 as above recorded) 17 Q. I withdraw the last question. 18 My next question is did you eliminate the 19 potential impact of the predominance of marl soils 20 from the conclusion that you reported in the last 21 sentence of paragraph 16? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It 23 assumes a fact not in evidence. 24 A. I don't believe that came into my 25 formulating of this opinion. I don't believe I took 631 1 that factor -- it wasn't involved. 2 Q. So you did not attempt to eliminate that 3 factor? 4 A. I am not certain that it was a factor in 5 this particular observation. 6 Q. Why would that be? 7 A. Well, both of the communities at -- you 8 can find peat in both of those areas. We are not 9 going to say 12 kilometers, we are not necessarily 10 referring to a 12 kilometer station on this 11 particular transect but in that general area of the 12 marsh. 13 Q. I take it your answer is you were 14 comparing a peat community to a peat community? 15 A. I am comparing a peat community to a peat 16 community, that's correct. 17 Q. But there are marl communities in this 18 area as well? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. How do you know that you were actually 21 comparing a peat community to a peat community if 22 there are also marl communities in this area? 23 A. I don't want to sound -- I just was. I 24 mean, this is a -- it is a very hard question to 25 answer. You are asking me to speculate on things -- 632 1 not speculate but to take in factors that I wouldn't 2 normally consider under this type of a statement that 3 I had made in paragraph 16. 4 Q. Are there any other environmental factors 5 that might determine the distribution and abundance 6 of Eleocharis aside from nutrients? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. What would those be? 9 A. Offhand, I -- we don't know enough about 10 the community ecology of Eleocharis to say what they 11 would be. I would think the parameters of fire and 12 hydroperiod and all the things we mentioned 13 previously or you mentioned previously could play a 14 role in determining the Eleocharis distributions. 15 Q. Would that be true for Panicum as well? 16 A. I believe -- 17 Q. The same kind of factors? 18 A. I believe ecological factors in marsh 19 species or species that are exposed to what we call 20 hydroperiod would all be affected by the same basic 21 parameters. 22 Q. And that would be true for sawgrass and 23 cattail too? 24 A. I think I just said all species, meaning 25 sawgrass and cattail too. 633 1 Q. When you made the observations that you 2 are reporting in paragraph 16, where were you? I 3 realize you were in the Park, that's not what I mean, 4 were you in a vehicle of some kind when you made 5 these observations, were you in the helicopter? 6 A. I have been in the helicopter, I've been 7 on foot, I have been on an air boat, numerous ways of 8 traveling around through the Park. 9 Q. Did you observe this same abnormality in 10 the water conservation areas? 11 A. I don't recall if I stated it but I 12 certainly have seen similar changes in areas. I 13 would not be as comfortable noting the changes in 14 those areas as I am in the Park because I have more 15 experience in the Park than I do in these other 16 areas. 17 Q. Aside from the fact that you have more 18 experience in the Park, would you also be less 19 comfortable in reporting those abnormalities because 20 maybe they are not as apparent, would that also be a 21 reason? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 23 question. 24 A. The abnormalities in Loxahatchee and in 25 Water Conservation Area 2A are far from less apparent 634 1 than the Park and Water Conservation Area 3A in the 2 area where we had our transect. The abnormalities 3 are not as evident at that particular point because 4 of the direction of water flow. In fact, that was 5 one of the reasons for doing that 3A transect. 6 Q. What about in 2A and the Refuge, I take it 7 that the answer to my question is no, the 8 abnormalities are just as apparent there if not more 9 so as they are in the Park, is that accurate? 10 A. Certain abnormalities up there are just 11 very well noted not only by myself but by others. 12 And I would say that they would be better 13 qualified for Loxahatchee, Mark Maffei and also Bob 14 Doren, who have done work in these areas, would be 15 more qualified to state on the abnormal nature of 16 these things. 17 Q. What about Water Conservation Area 2A, 18 would someone be more qualified to make statements 19 about the abnormalities up there? 20 A. Bob has plant data for 2A and there is 21 also a vast -- I shouldn't use the word vast -- there 22 is a certain amount of literature available from the 23 District that discusses the community changes in 2A. 24 Q. When you say you have less experience in 25 those areas, does that mean you have fewer 635 1 observations, fewer field visits, is that what you 2 meant? 3 A. That would be correct. 4 Q. If I could ask you to direct your 5 attention to paragraph 17 of your declaration, in the 6 first sentence it says that the "TP levels that I 7 measured in the soils in Everglades National Park, 8 Loxahatchee and WCA-2A, coupled with field 9 observations and my overall understanding of the 10 Everglades ecosystem, indicate that an elevated of 11 level of TP in the soil causes alteration of 12 macrophyte communities in the marsh." 13 Could you tell me what you mean by your 14 overall understanding of the Everglades ecosystem? 15 A. I guess another way to state it would be 16 my general knowledge of the functioning or the 17 ecology of the Everglades. 18 Q. Does that derive from these hundreds of 19 field visits that you described in paragraph 16? 20 A. It is derived from my overall experience 21 down in South Florida and that would include 22 conversations, readings and also my own personal 23 experience in the field and my own data. 24 Q. With respect to the portion of that 25 sentence that refers to elevated level of TP in the 636 1 soil, what does that mean? 2 A. I would have to say that the levels of 3 total phosphorus that I measured in all of these 4 areas is something that I can correlate with these 5 vegetation changes. 6 Q. How high is elevated? 7 A. It varies depending on which area you are 8 in. What I am referring to -- 9 Q. Let's start with the Park then. 10 A. The Park, do you want to go to the data 11 and look at what the numbers are? 12 Q. That is fine. 13 A. I believe RJ 8 has some stuff in it for 14 the Park. 15 Q. RJ 8. 16 A. And certainly values, the 1100 to the 17 thousand range would be elevated levels for the Park. 18 Q. I am sorry, 1100 to what? 19 A. To a thousand or a thousand to 1100. 20 (Pause) 21 A. There are certainly other transects or 22 other things available, I don't know what exhibit it 23 is, for Loxahatchee or Water Conservation Area 2A and 24 3A. 25 Without going to those I can't really tell 637 1 you what the levels are. 2 Q. What do you mean in this paragraph by 3 elevated level in the context of the Refuge? How 4 high is elevated? 5 A. I need to see the numbers to tell you when 6 you are asking me to put an absolute on that. 7 I don't know which -- 8 Q. Let's see, the Refuge, I think we have an 9 exhibit in on the Refuge that has a summary of total 10 phosphorus levels in the soil. I think that's 16. 11 (Pause) 12 A. Certainly concentrations at, you know, 13 between probably again here 1100 and 2,380, whatever 14 the value, certainly would be in my mind elevated. 15 Q. Then look at the one we have for WCA-2A 16 which I think is one that came in today, I think that 17 is RJ 35. 18 A. The values for numbers here where I can 19 say there is definitely elevated, not that the other 20 ones aren't, would be between 1,428 and 2,059. 21 Q. You said that perhaps others, other lower 22 levels might also be elevated but I just want to know 23 within the context of paragraph 17 what you are 24 reporting to the court, what levels are you talking 25 about as being elevated levels of TP in the soil, the 638 1 ones we just went over? 2 A. I am trying to give you some numbers for 3 something that I obviously did not use numbers for 4 when I formulated elevated which means high 5 concentrations and that's a relative term. 6 I am trying to put some numbers on that 7 for you. 8 Q. When you drafted paragraph 17 you didn't 9 have any numbers in mind, is that what you are 10 saying? 11 A. I don't think I needed to rely on any 12 particular number, meaning 1,100 or 2,000 to say that 13 this is elevated concentration. 14 Q. Would there be a minimum to the elevated 15 concentration that would be referred to in paragraph 16 17? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 18 think I understand the question 19 (Pause) 20 A. You are asking me to give you, you know, 21 minumums and maximums and levels that I have. 22 Elevated levels that I was referring to in here were 23 these grossly elevated levels over background, over 24 Everglades background, ten times higher. I don't 25 know if I want to put a bottom limit on that. That 639 1 would require comparison, say, for instance, with my 2 data with Bob Doren's community structure data to say 3 there was a level at which this effect no longer was 4 observed. 5 Q. Those grossly elevated levels, those are 6 the ones you are the telling the court caused 7 alteration of the macrophyte community in the marsh? 8 A. I don't think I am saying elevated total 9 phosphorus levels caused community changes. 10 Certainly from my ability to judge those are most 11 evident in the grossly contaminated areas. Bob 12 Doren's work which is more numerical and species 13 specific can probably go further with that 14 definition. 15 Q. Further would be lower, lower elevated, 16 lower elevated levels he would be able to demonstrate 17 caused these macrophyte changes, is that what you 18 meant? 19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form 20 A. I don't know. I am saying his data may 21 show that. 22 Those macrophyte community changes are, I 23 can judge those at a level much higher than I can 24 judge levels that are caused -- changes in the 25 microbial communities. 640 1 Q. In the second sentence it says, "An 2 example of such alteration, in addition to the 3 abnormal vegetation patterns I observed in Shark 4 River Slough just south of the S-12C structure, is 5 the conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands to 6 cattail-dominated stands in the marsh." 7 The part of that sentence that refers to 8 "the abnormal vegetation patterns I observed in Shark 9 River Slough just south of the 12C structure," that 10 refers to the information that you summarized in 11 paragraph 16, is that correct? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 13 A. I believe so. 14 Q. Were there any others in that 12C transect 15 that you observed that you are referring to in 16 paragraph 17 that are not already reported in 17 paragraph 16, is there anything else to add to that? 18 A. Any other changes or -- 19 Q. Yes, any other -- 20 A. Vegetative changes? 21 Q. Alteration of macrophyte communities. I 22 just want to make sure I've got them all. 23 (Pause) 24 A. I don't believe I referred to the 25 Pontederia or arrow leaf anywhere in here. I am not 641 1 sure anymore. That would be another change that 2 occurred at the nutrient dosing site. 3 Q. I believe the arrow leaf got left out of 4 the affidavit or at least not included in the 5 affidavit. What would be the impact on arrow leaf? 6 A. I believe I described that already. 7 Q. It likes nutrient areas or it doesn't like 8 them? 9 A. It would be in nutrient areas. 10 Q. It is more predominant in nutrient areas? 11 A. It is not necessarily more -- it is 12 bigger, it has a different growth pattern. 13 Q. With respect to the last sentence of 14 paragraph 17 you say that, another example of the 15 alteration is the conversion of sawgrass-dominated 16 stands to cattail-dominated stands in the marsh. 17 Did you observe this conversion in the 18 Park? 19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 20 question. 21 A. I believe south of the S-12C is in the 22 Park. If you are asking me whether I watched 23 sawgrass turn into cattails, the answer is no. 24 Q. No, that is not what I am asking. I guess 25 I am trying to get a feel for whether that last 642 1 portion of that sentence refers only to the S-12C 2 transect or whether it refers to other parts of the 3 Everglades as well. 4 A. I see. I believe that it could refer to 5 other parts of the Everglades also. 6 Q. So you saw this, you observed this 7 conversion along the 12C transect. Did you observe 8 it in other parts of the Park? 9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. You 10 are mischaracterizing his testimony. 11 Q. I am sorry, did you observe conversion of 12 sawgrass-dominated stands and cattail-dominated 13 stands in the marsh? 14 A. I didn't observe conversion of anything, 15 meaning from, did I watch it go from sawgrass to 16 cattails. 17 I have observed areas that have been 18 converted from sawgrass dominated to cattail 19 dominated in the marsh. 20 Q. Let's focus on those areas then. Where 21 are they located? 22 A. Where we have cattail-dominated stands in 23 Everglades National Park or in the water conservation 24 areas or what? 25 Q. Anywhere in the Everglades where you have 643 1 observed this phenomenon. 2 A. Let's start north in Loxahatchee, in the 3 perimeter areas. 4 We can go into Loxahatchee around bird 5 rookeries. We can move into Water Conservation Area 6 2A -- 7 Q. Let's stay in Loxahatchee for a second 8 because I am not sure I know where we are there. You 9 said in the perimeter areas? 10 A. The areas surrounding the canal, yes. 11 Q. Anywhere else in the Refuge? 12 A. I said around bird rookeries. 13 Q. Bird -- 14 A. Bird rookeries. 15 Q. Anywhere else? 16 A. I am sure there are other places there. I 17 could say, say for instance, alligator hole and I 18 would not necessarily know whether I observed that in 19 the Refuge or whether I have just seen those all over 20 the place. 21 Q. What about in Water Conservation Area 2A? 22 A. The area south of the, I believe the S-10 23 structures. 24 Q. That would be along the transect that you 25 have sampled in 2A? 644 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. I don't want to limit you to that but 3 certainly there. 4 A. Not limiting it to that but certainly 5 there. 6 Q. And other areas in 2A, too? Other areas 7 in 2A also? 8 A. I can't say -- other areas meaning south 9 along from the S-10s and extending that, I have 10 trouble there separating that out from what I have 11 seen drawn in figures by I believe Davis and what I 12 have actually observed myself. 13 Q. What are you reporting in this paragraph, 14 things that you actually observed yourself or things 15 that were in figures from someone else, in paragraph 16 17, this last sentence? 17 (Pause) 18 A. I believe I was just stating an example of 19 a converse that had taken place, not that I 20 necessarily observed this in any particular areas. 21 That's what we are going through now, putting 22 particulars on it. 23 Q. What about in the Park? We have certainly 24 nailed down the 12C transect I take it as one of 25 these areas. Are there other areas in the Park? 645 1 A. The nutrient dosing site has got cattail 2 in it now, and then of course areas around alligator 3 holes in the Park. 4 Q. You have also mentioned the L-67 extended. 5 Is that going to be one of the areas where this 6 conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands to 7 cattail-dominated stands has occurred? 8 A. I have seen there are numerous cattails 9 along the L-67 extended and considering that, I 10 believe I told you before I had seen a figure that I 11 think was prepared by Davis but I am not sure who 12 prepared that figure, that there was cattail stands 13 in that particular area, I don't know whether they 14 considered them dominant or what. We are using 15 someone else's observation here. 16 I certainly observed them myself. 17 Q. Are they a converted area, this area next 18 to L-67 extended, is that a converted area? 19 A. It is my understanding that it is an area 20 that is converted from sawgrass to one that has a 21 large number of cattails but I'm not certain about 22 that. 23 Q. Have we covered all the areas that you 24 personally observed? 25 A. Offhand, yes. I mean, I am not saying 646 1 there are not other places there where there are 2 cattails in Everglades National Park. I just don't 3 know the history or whatnot. Those are the general 4 areas. 5 Q. These are the ones you feel confident you 6 know the history so that you can say there has been a 7 conversion? 8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 9 A. The alligator holes I don't necessarily 10 know the history around them. That is someplace that 11 has a localized nutrient source. 12 Q. I take it the nutrient source is the 13 alligators and other animals that use that hole? 14 A. I would assume that to be the case. 15 Q. And apparently you are also willing to 16 rely on other sources aside from your observations to 17 support the conclusion that there has been a 18 conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands to 19 cattail-dominated stands in the marsh. You referred 20 to Davis, for example? 21 A. Yes, I am taking other sources into 22 consideration for that. If there is an area that, 23 say, for instance, Mark Maffei tells me they know was 24 not cattail dominated five years ago or whatever 25 because they have some sort of written record or 647 1 aerial photography of that particular area, I would 2 rely on that also. 3 Q. And these were sort of informal statements 4 by people, they are not reported, say, in the 5 scientific literature? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 7 Q. Is that what you are talking about? 8 A. Well, for the Everglades -- 9 Q. Let's back up and look at the scientific 10 literature for the Everglades. Are you relying on 11 anything in the scientific literature that supports 12 this statement that there has been a conversion of 13 sawgrass-dominated stands to cattail-dominated stands 14 in the marsh? 15 A. I believe there are reports in the 16 literature. I don't know how heavily I would really 17 on them for arriving at the statement there. You are 18 asking me to separate out things that I have used and 19 haven't used and I can't really separate out what 20 what I did last week from what I did five years ago. 21 It is very hard when you are talking about general 22 knowledge questions. 23 Q. Was that what you are reporting here, just 24 general knowledge? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 648 1 A. I am reporting total phosphorus levels 2 that I measured in the soil which I don't know that 3 you would consider to be general knowledge. 4 And then observations of not only, that 5 have not only been done by myself but also by others 6 and reports in the literature altogether to make this 7 statement. 8 Q. I am a little confused because I thought 9 that the second sentence in paragraph 17 was 10 referring to conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands 11 to cattail-dominated stands in the marsh that were 12 caused by an elevated level of TP in the soil, and 13 now you are telling me that you are referring to or 14 at least I think you are telling me you are referring 15 to references in the literature to support that 16 statement. 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 18 A. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to 19 refer to references in the literature as much as I 20 should my own references, my own observations on this 21 type of a thing. 22 Q. I agree, that is fine, I just want to make 23 sure we are both talking about the same thing. 24 Can you tell me what some of these 25 references in the literature are that support that 649 1 statement as I have just worded it? 2 A. They are more than statements just for the 3 Everglades ecosystem, they have been shown in other 4 systems where nutrients are the controlling factor 5 for cattail domination, and then there would be the 6 literature for the Everglades system, mostly South 7 Florida Water Management District's paper by, I don't 8 remember whether it was Dan Scheidt who was the lead 9 author in there, he was one of the authors of a 10 particular paper. 11 Q. What other marsh systems has this 12 phenomenon been demonstrated in and reported in the 13 literature outside the Everglades? 14 A. I am sure there are many more than I can 15 come up with off the top of my head but there is one 16 reported in Wisconsin by Kadlec. 17 Q. By whom? 18 A. Kadlec. 19 Q. Any others that you can think of? 20 A. Not that I can give you specific 21 references. I do have additional references for 22 cattail domination that are available. 23 Q. What about with respect to Everglades 24 ecosystem, you referred to a paper in which Scheidt 25 was a lead author, are there any others? 650 1 A. I don't know if Scheidt was a lead author, 2 I believe I referred to a paper that Scheidt was an 3 author or coauthor, I don't know who the lead author 4 was on that. 5 I am not sure about numbers of papers in 6 the Everglades system. 7 Q. Do any others come to mind in the 8 Everglades? 9 A. It seems to me that there are at least 10 some reports that indicate that from South Florida 11 Water Management District, but I wouldn't be able to 12 tell you what number they were, how many or exactly 13 which reports they are. 14 Q. How is it that elevated level of TP in the 15 soil causes an alteration of macrophyte communities 16 in the marsh? What is the mechanical way or 17 biological or physical or chemical way in which that 18 occurs? 19 A. Again, this is outside of my area if we 20 are talking about exact mechanisms, but it basically 21 goes to the same type of competitive processes that 22 are involved with changes at the microbial level or 23 any other level, that certain species are better able 24 to compete for low nutrients than other species and 25 therefore elevated levels of total phosphorus will 651 1 allow some species to compete in an environment where 2 they normally would not be able to compete the same 3 way that low levels of total phosphorus will allow a 4 species to out-compete another species that requires 5 large quantities of phosphorus. 6 Q. When you say these sorts of mechanisms are 7 outside of your area, you mean your area of 8 expertise? 9 A. I mean for plants, the uptake mechanism 10 and whatnot for particular plants. The concept of 11 nutrient limitation and community structure 12 controlled by nutrients is a very well defined 13 ecological phenomenon so it is not very difficult for 14 me to go from one area to another, microbes to 15 plants. But I wouldn't be willing to discuss that in 16 terms of say, how does a cattail utilize phosphorus 17 and what are the exact mechanisms of that. 18 Q. Again, for that we would need to talk to 19 say Mr. Doren or Mr. Sternberg, they would be better 20 sources for that, would you say? 21 A. Someone who is more into the botanical 22 aspects of this I believe would be a better source 23 for that. I am not fingering anyone as being the 24 person that you should talk to about that aspect. 25 I feel comfortable in making the 652 1 statements that I have made in the declaration but I 2 don't like expanding on them too much. 3 Q. How does the total phosphorus that you are 4 describing in this paragraph get into the soil? 5 A. It is a process of both physiochemical 6 processes and microbial processes along with 7 eventually in the long term the growth patterns and 8 diagenesis of the plant material, the litter that 9 eventually forms the soils. 10 Q. Let's go back to the physiochemical 11 process. Could you describe how total phosphorus 12 gets into the soil through the physiochemical 13 process? 14 A. The physiochemical would relate to the 15 uptake of, it could be in the form of total 16 phosphorus or the form of orthophosphorus that we are 17 talking about these parameters but that would be a 18 parameter by which biology is only a secondary 19 consideration in that process rather than being a 20 primary process, meaning microbial uptake would be 21 another way of seeing how these things could go into 22 the soil and that would not be referred to as 23 physiochemical. 24 Q. I am not much of an expert myself. Could 25 you just summarize the physiochemical process that 653 1 you are talking about, or if there is more than one, 2 the ones you are referring to? 3 A. I would think that there would be 4 literally dozens of types of processes we could talk 5 to in the aspect of physiochemical. 6 Q. Are there one or two that would be more 7 significant in this ecosystem than others? 8 A. It depends on what kind of detail you want 9 to do. We could talk of like at the gross level and 10 refer to things like ionic bonding or ion pair 11 exchange would be a lot different than say going into 12 something like van Der Waal's forces and dealing on 13 that level, but those are all things that we are 14 trying to put -- we are trying to study those at this 15 time in our laboratory so I have trouble trying to 16 say, well, okay, these are the two big ones, because 17 the major category is the physiochemical processes. 18 Q. And these processes would vary from area 19 of the country to area of the country, would that be 20 true? 21 A. No, the processes would be the same, their 22 relative importance would vary from, according to the 23 characteristics of the particular soil or particle 24 that you are examining. 25 Q. Is that one of the things that you are 654 1 studying in your laboratory now, to try to establish 2 the relative importance of these different 3 physiochemical processes in the Everglades? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 Q. What about for the microbial process, 6 could you summarize what that means? 7 A. Sure, that's a lot easier. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Microorganisms will, if you will, see 10 phosphorus in the environment in its various forms 11 and whether it is in the form of orthophosphate or in 12 the form of an organic phosphate that can be taken up 13 or one that can be acted on by alkaline phosphatase, 14 the organism will incorporate a certain portion of 15 that into their biomass and then through normal 16 processes by which the smaller organism either 17 divides or is eaten by an organism that is a 18 bactivore, that will be translated on through the 19 food chain, it can also be released in the forms of 20 bioavailable or soluable reactive phosphate which can 21 be taken up by the plant communities and worked upon 22 like that. 23 Q. What about the diagenesis of plants? 24 A. Diagenesis refers to the process by which 25 this litter is turned into soil, if you will, or by 655 1 which it is humified. 2 And along with that humification is this 3 process of diagenesis, you have material, carbon 4 dioxide specifically in this system, being removed 5 from the system, going into the atmosphere as a gas, 6 and so the material that's present being condensed 7 into a form that is able to to be digested into the 8 soil. 9 Q. Where does the total phosphorus come from 10 that experiences these different processes and is 11 incorporated into the soil, does it come from the 12 water? 13 A. That is our assumption. It doesn't 14 necessarily have to be total phosphorus coming from 15 the waters. Total phosphorus, remember, contains a 16 fraction of orthophosphate. It is everything. So we 17 assume -- I assume that you are referring to that 18 when you are referring to total phosphorus, and that 19 comes from the water. 20 Q. From the surface water that is above the 21 soil? 22 A. Surface water, a certain amount comes in 23 rainfall. 24 Q. The rainfall eventually becomes surface 25 water, doesn't it? 656 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would there be any other sources of the 3 total phosphorus that soil incorporates? 4 A. Sources? 5 Q. Yes, aside from rainfall and surface 6 water. 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 8 A. You would have to start separating out 9 internal sources from external sources. 10 Q. Internal in the soil? 11 A. Internally to the system would be, say, 12 for instance, dry deposition is usually considered to 13 be an internal source, meaning that it originated in 14 the same environment and just fell back down on the 15 environment. 16 Q. How would that occur, for example? 17 A. Pollen, plants, insect wings, parts, other 18 assorted types of things that are originating in that 19 local environment. In other words, once a pollen 20 grain, when it exists on the plant you would consider 21 it part of the plant, once it falls into the water 22 column, take it into the laboratory and examine it 23 you would consider it being part of total phosphorus. 24 Q. What about external sources? 25 A. Are there other external sources? 657 1 Q. I thought we were just describing internal 2 sources like pollen. 3 A. Pollen especially in the Everglades is 4 considered an internal source. 5 Q. What kind of external sources? 6 A. Water and rain I believe would be the two 7 major external sources. 8 Q. Aside from the water and rain are there 9 other external sources of phosphorus in the system? 10 A. Yes, there would be cosmogenic phosphorus 11 inputs. 12 Q. What is that? 13 A. The reaction of chlorine 35 atoms with 14 cosmic rays in the atmosphere which forms P-33 and 15 P-32, two radioactive isotopes which both decay to 16 P-31 which is the normal form of phosphorus that is 17 found in the system. 18 Q. This falls out of the sky? 19 A. Falls out of the the sky, a global source 20 of phosphorus. 21 Q. Is that basically it? 22 A. You could have a certain amount brought in 23 by, say, for instance, animals that were foraging in 24 a distant environment, a wading bird in a system 25 outside the basin that we would be discussing and 658 1 that would be bringing nutrients into, could bring it 2 into another basin. I don't know if you want to say 3 that is coming into the Everglades, for instance, 4 from outside the Everglades because it would all be 5 the same system, more like translocating nutrients 6 within the system. 7 Q. So normally a wading bird if it consumed 8 its food in the Everglades system before it excreted, 9 you would consider that to be an internal source? 10 A. I could think of examples also where they 11 could be considered both an internal or external 12 source. If it was far out of the system, if there 13 were birds feeding in Florida Bay far enough into the 14 fresh water system I would consider that to be an 15 external source. If you had organisms in 16 Loxahatchee, feeding in the perimeter or non-marshes, 17 then going back into rookery within the same marsh, I 18 would not consider that to be an external source. 19 Q. The birds that feed in Florida Bay and 20 then say return to a rookery in the Park, they could 21 do that on a daily basis, you are not talking about 22 long-term migration necessarily? 23 A. I am not talking about long-term 24 migration. If we had organisms, the Caspian tern 25 going across the Atlantic Ocean, certainly if it has 659 1 anything left in its intestines when it lands in the 2 Park certainly would be an external source. 3 Q. In this first sentence of paragraph 17, 4 you say that your field observations and overall 5 understanding of the Everglades ecosystem indicate 6 that an elevated level of TP in the soil causes 7 alteration of macrophyte communities in the marsh. 8 I would like to ask you what your field 9 observations were. I realize we spent a lot of time 10 on this. And I just want to know whether there are 11 any additional field observations in addition to the 12 ones you have discussed in paragraph 16 and in the 13 questions and answers on paragraph 16, is there 14 anything else to add on to these observations? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 16 A. I don't think so. That's not saying you 17 won't be able to come back tomorrow and after 18 reviewing this and find something or I would be able 19 to to do things. 20 Q. That is what you are talking about in 21 paragraph 17, same thing that you reported in 16? 22 A. 16 and what we discussed. I wouldn't 23 limit it to just 16 because we discussed numerous 24 others. 25 Q. How did you establish causation based on 660 1 those field observations in your overall 2 understanding of the Everglades ecosystem between 3 elevated level of TP in the soil and alteration of 4 macrophyte communities in the marsh? 5 A. I would have to refer you I guess to the 6 first sentence of paragraph 17. And this is not done 7 with a mathematical source, this is an observation 8 and based on these particular things, based on my 9 observations and based on that I am willing to put a 10 cause and effect relationship on this. 11 Q. Causal effect is similar to the one you 12 are describing in paragraph 16, is that correct? It 13 is just a different source, this time it is the soil 14 as opposed to the water? 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 16 A. You asked me whether it was different or 17 the same. 18 Q. My understanding of 16 is you were talking 19 about phosphorus in the water and now in 17 you are 20 talking about phosphorus in the soil, is that pretty 21 much the difference between the two conclusions that 22 you are drawing there? 23 A. I don't read that into 16 that I was 24 talking in the water. 25 Q. I was referring to the last sentence in 661 1 16. 2 A. The water causes the nutrient levels in 3 the soil to increase, that I will -- 4 Q. So we are just a little bit further down 5 the chain of causation in 17, we have gotten from the 6 water to the soil? 7 A. I don't think that you can say that we are 8 necessarily limiting 16 to the water. There 9 certainly is a sentence in there that water, the last 10 sentence, "It is my opinion that this abnormality is 11 caused by elevated levels of nutrients in the water 12 delivered to the Park through the S-12 structures." 13 That just refers to a source, it doesn't 14 necessarily refer to what caused those changes in the 15 system. 16 Q. So your observations and conclusions in 17 paragraph 16 are also deriving from elevated levels 18 of total phosphorus in the soil too, the water is 19 just where it comes from? 20 A. That would be a portion of them. Certain 21 periphyton changes wouldn't have to rely on changes 22 in the soil, for instance. They would be more -- 23 have a higher ability to reflect changes in the water 24 alone. 25 Q. Did you perform any experiments to 662 1 quantify this causation that you are reporting in the 2 first sentence of paragraph 17? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 4 A. Experiments, no, I did not. 5 Q. And we spent a fair amount of time talking 6 about other potential causes for the community 7 alterations that are summarized in paragraph 16. 8 With respect to total phosphorus in the soil, have 9 you been able to eliminate any of those other causes 10 in showing that it is the elevated level of total 11 phosphorus in the soil that causes this alteration? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. It is my strong belief that the total 14 phosphorus in the soil alone could explain the 15 majority of these changes along with the total 16 phosphorus in the water, however, that water is not 17 there all the time. So there are other parameters 18 that affect these communities on a seasonal basis. 19 But I think we can explain the incidents 20 that I have mentioned in paragraph 16 using the 21 phosphorus analogy or phosphorus example. 22 Q. Does that mean there is a theoretical 23 basis for the conclusion that elevated level of total 24 phosphorus in the soil caused the alteration of 25 macrophyte communities? 663 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 2 question. 3 A. There is a theoretical basis to just about 4 everything in science, so I would have to say the 5 answer to that question is yes, there is a 6 theoretical basis. 7 Q. Is there an experimental basis for that 8 conclusion? 9 A. In 17? 10 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 11 A. I said I did not perform any experiments 12 in that. 13 Q. And you are not aware of any? 14 A. I would have to say I'm not aware of any 15 that I have knowledge of. I've got a paper on my 16 desk that I haven't read yet that I believe alludes 17 to some experimentation that was done in water 18 conservation areas and at the time I was formulating 19 this paragraph I didn't have that available to me. 20 Q. What is that paper? 21 A. I haven't read it and I just can't think 22 of the gentleman's name that wrote it. I believe he 23 works for the USDA but I'm not sure. 24 Q. Would it be possible for you to bring a 25 copy of that paper to the deposition tomorrow? 664 1 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think that is 2 covered by your request, counsel. 3 A. I assume I could, but again, this is 4 something I just received. 5 Q. Is there any confidentiality understanding 6 under which you received this paper? 7 A. Oh, I don't believe so. I believe it is a 8 South Florida Water Management District document. It 9 was done -- I'm not sure. Like I say, I have this 10 paper, it is not in a formal folder or anything like 11 that, it is a xerox copy of something that was sent 12 to me and I don't think there is any confidentiality 13 or anything involved in it. 14 MR. JACKSON: Do you have any objection, 15 Ms. Ponzoli, to his bringing a copy of this paper to 16 the deposition tomorrow morning? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I would want him to 18 ascertain the confidentiality and make sure it is 19 covered by the request that you propounded. It 20 obviously has come into his possession, I guess, in 21 the last 24 hours. 22 MR. GOUGH: It can't be confidential if 23 it is a Water Management District publication. 24 MS. PONZOLI: He didn't say it was a 25 publication -- 665 1 MR. GOUGH: If it is a document by the 2 Water Management District -- 3 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gough, I am not arguing 4 about producing it. I will discuss it with Dr. Jones 5 privately and we will take a position tomorrow after 6 I know what he is talking about. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q. With respect to this conclusion that you 9 summarized in the first sentence of paragraph 17, I 10 just want to make sure the record is clear on this: 11 Have you been able to eliminate other causes for the 12 alteration of macrophyte communities in the marsh 13 aside from elevated levels of TP in the soil? 14 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection as before. 15 A. I have not attempted to do that. I based 16 my opinion on what we have in 16 and 17 and basically 17 throughout this whole declaration. There are other 18 people who are more qualified to eliminate causes of 19 these particular effects than myself. 20 I think the evidence is pretty strong 21 towards nutrients being a factor in there. 22 Q. Were you able to or have you been able to 23 to establish a threshold with respect to levels of TP 24 in the soil at which these alterations of macrophyte 25 communities in the marsh would occur? 666 1 MS. PONZOLI: Objection to form. 2 A. I have not attempted to establish a 3 threshold. 4 Q. Would it be possible to do that? 5 MS. PONZOLI: Objection to form. 6 Q. Anything is possible, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. How would you do it if you wanted to or 9 someone were willing to pay to you do that, how would 10 you design an experiment to do that? 11 A. I'm not sure that you could pay me enough 12 to want to design an experiment to do that. 13 I really -- that is not something, 14 macrophytes and whatnot is not an area that I would 15 be willing to take money for to try and find the 16 threshold for that. 17 Q. Even for the experimental design? Suppose 18 you could get somebody else to do it and you just had 19 to design the experiment, that still would be outside 20 of the area of your expertise? 21 A. I would feel that I shouldn't take money 22 to do something like that when I know that there are 23 people who are more qualified. If they would ask me 24 to do the same thing for microorganisms, I would be 25 willing to do it. 667 1 Q. With respect to the last sentence of 2 paragraph 17 which we discussed, the conversion of 3 sawgrass-dominated stands to cattail-dominated stands 4 in the marsh, I take it from this sentence and the 5 discussion we had of it earlier, you are describing a 6 process that has occurred over time, is that correct? 7 A. You know -- 8 Q. That's what you mean -- 9 A. For conversion you have to imply time in 10 there. It can't happen instantaneously. 11 Q. That's what you mean by the word 12 conversion in this sentence? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 14 question. 15 A. Yes, I have to say that that is -- time 16 has to be incorporated in there. 17 Q. With respect to the areas in which you say 18 you observed this conversion, let's go back up to the 19 Refuge. When did you observe the areas in the Refuge 20 around the perimeter canals when they were sawgrass 21 dominated, when was that observation made? 22 A. I believe -- 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 24 A. -- I already stated I did not make 25 observations of any particular environment going from 668 1 sawgrass to cattail or from any species to another 2 species. 3 The conversion is not something I observed 4 myself. I have observed environments that I have 5 been told or areas that I have been told were 6 sawgrass dominant and have now been converted into 7 cattails. And I have read about that particular 8 conversion. 9 Q. I am sorry, I am confused or I was 10 confused. I take it now you are saying for the 11 second sentence and you have been saying all along 12 and I just didn't understand it, this second sentence 13 with respect to sawgrass to cattails is not based on 14 your personal observations? 15 A. I said that in the very first answer. 16 MS. PONZOLI: Object to form. 17 A. If we were using the word conversion to 18 the point where I was watching sawgrass turn into 19 cattail, I had not done that. 20 Q. When you said that I thought that you 21 meant you hadn't seen it happen overnight. You are 22 saying you hadn't seen it happen period? 23 A. I am saying I haven't seen that happen, I 24 wouldn't say period. I don't know, now after five 25 years, I don't remember, say, for instance, along 669 1 L-67 or at S-12C. I have certainly seen the cattails 2 show up at the nutrient dosing site so that is, would 3 be an example. I have seen an environment now that 4 has received a large dose of phosphorus in the form 5 of bird rookery there and I expect the next year or 6 year after to see conversion to cattail, maybe, or 7 maybe not. 8 Q. I guess that would mean that you are not 9 in a position based on your personal observations to 10 say how long it would take for this conversion to 11 occur, to go from a sawgrass-dominated stand to a 12 cattail-dominated stand in the marsh? 13 A. I would not make that -- I wouldn't put a 14 year-wise feature on that. I could certainly think 15 of conditions, if you don't have any cattails present 16 to begin with, that you would essentially have no 17 source of a cattail, that you would never get a 18 conversion to cattail with elevated levels of 19 phosphorus in the soil. 20 Q. If there aren't any cattails present then 21 this phenomenon wouldn't occur so let's exclude that. 22 And again my question is based on your observations. 23 You couldn't say how long it would take 24 for the conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands to 25 cattail-dominated stands in the marsh to occur? 670 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Would you be able to put an areal extent 3 on the conversion of the sawgrass-dominated stands to 4 cattail-dominated stands that you are referring to in 5 the last sentence of paragraph 17? 6 A. No, I cannot. 7 Q. Again with respect to this phenomenon that 8 you are describing in the second sentence of 9 paragraph 17, you cannot eliminate other factors 10 outside of nutrients as potential causes for this 11 conversion, is that correct? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 13 answered. 14 A. I have answered that in the past and I 15 have to stick with what I have said before. 16 Q. No, I am just referring to this particular 17 phenomenon that you are describing in the second 18 sentence of paragraph 17. I know you have responded 19 to that question with respect to other phenomena that 20 you have reported in this affidavit. I just mean the 21 conversion of sawgrass-dominated stands to 22 cattail-dominated stands in the marsh. 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 24 answered. 25 A. The answer that I gave you was for the 671 1 abnormalities or for the changes and I think that 2 that has to include cattail domination versus 3 sawgrass domination. 4 Q. Have you ever observed elevated TP levels 5 in the soils where the sawgrass dominated community 6 was not converted to cattail-dominated stands? 7 A. I have observations of elevated total 8 phosphorus where the communities are not dominated by 9 cattail. 10 Q. And are still dominated by sawgrass? 11 A. That's correct, altered sawgrass in most 12 instances. 13 Q. And by altered you mean, let's say, 14 taller? 15 A. Taller would be the easiest key you could 16 use. 17 Q. How would someone know if they were trying 18 to test the validity of this hypothesis, how would 19 they know if they measured elevated TP level in the 20 soil where there was a sawgrass-dominated stand that 21 it would be converted to a cattail-dominated stand? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 23 A. You are asking me to tell you something I 24 just told you wouldn't occur in the absence of a seed 25 source, for instance. 672 1 Q. Let me withdraw that question, then. 2 If you observed elevated levels of TP in 3 the soil in a sawgrass-dominated stand, based on that 4 information would you be able to predict the 5 likelihood that that sawgrass-dominated stand would 6 convert to a cattail-dominated stand? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 8 A. Given the presence of a source? 9 Q. Okay, given the presence of a source. 10 A. I don't believe that that kind of -- it 11 would be a speculation that I would make. I could 12 certainly envision that happening but I couldn't say 13 that I could predict what time frame or anything that 14 type of conversion would take place in. 15 Q. Let's not talk about time frames. I am 16 just a layman struggling with this. 17 But suppose I went out there and I had a 18 sawgrass-dominated stand and I measured elevated 19 levels of TP in the soil. Would I be able to predict 20 from those two pieces of information whether or not 21 that stand was going to be converted to a 22 cattail-dominated stand, regardless of how long it 23 took, if there was a seed source for the cattail? 24 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection. 25 A. There would be other factors that come 673 1 into succession of one community to another at that 2 particular point, and you would have to have a full 3 understanding of those factors before you could make 4 that type of prediction. 5 Q. What would those factors be? 6 A. We mentioned before, hydroperiod, fire, 7 frost, if you had an area that was flooded for too 8 long, for instance, and the cattail would never be 9 allowed to germinate in that area, then again it 10 would not maintain itself, certainly other things, 11 freezing and other conditions associated with, other 12 physical conditions associated with the environment 13 might keep that from happening. 14 Q. When you used the phrase 15 sawgrass-dominated stand in the last sentence of 16 paragraph 17 I take it you don't mean by that that it 17 is a monoculture of sawgrass, do you? 18 A. I don't like the word monoculture. That 19 is a very dangerous word to get into. Monoculture 20 refers to, there is nothing else but. And I would be 21 hard pressed to think you could go into any community 22 and find no other plant species growing in that 23 particular area. 24 Q. That's what I wanted to get at, there 25 would be other species in a sawgrass-dominated stand? 674 1 A. Not necessarily, but as I said, you could 2 envision situations where it would be dominance. I 3 mean, an election, 51 percent gets you across the 4 line. 5 Q. Would that be true for cattails stands as 6 well too and the way you have used the phrase 7 cattail-dominated stands? 8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 9 A. Again, you are asking me cattail 10 dominated, how I used this but you said -- you used a 11 different term, monoculture. And I wouldn't describe 12 cattail dominated as being a monoculture of cattail 13 either, if that is the answer to your question. 14 Q. That's what I was looking at. 15 MR. JACKSON: Since it is 4:30 I propose 16 we stop now. 17 I would like to start again at 9:00 in the 18 morning, I appreciate your offer starting earlier but 19 I would just as soon start at 9 if it is all right 20 with everyone else. I think I can finish tomorrow. 21 MS. PONZOLI: All right. 22 (Thereupon, the taking of the 23 deposition was concluded) 24 25 675 1 I, RONALD DEAN JONES, do hereby certify that 2 I have read the foregoing depostion and that the same 3 is a true and accurate transcript of my testimony, 4 except for attached amendments, if any. 5 6 7 8 _______________________________ 9 10 11 12 13 The signature above of RONALD DEAN JONES was 14 subscribed and affirmed to before me this day _______ 15 of , 1991. __________ 16 17 18 19 20 _______________________________ 21 Notary Public 22 My commission expires 23 24 25 676 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA: : SS. 3 COUNTY OF DADE 4 5 I, Richard Bursky, a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public for the State 6 of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report the deposition of 7 RONALD DEAN JONES in stenotype; that the said witness was first duly sworn to testify the whole truth; that 8 the reading and subscribing of the deposition were not waived by the witness; and that the foregoing 9 pages numbered from 439 to 674, inclusive, constitute a true and correct transcription of my shorthand 10 notes of the deposition by said witness. 11 I further certify that the said deposition was taken at the time and place hereinabove set forth 12 and that the taking of said deposition was commenced and completed as hereinabove set out. 13 I further certify that I am not an 14 attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 15 connected with the action, nor financially interested in the action. 16 The foregoing certification of this 17 transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under the direct control 18 and/or direction of the certifying reporter. 19 Witness my hand in the City of Miami, County of Dade, State of Florida, this 13th day of 20 February, 1991. 21 22 _________________________ RICHARD BURSKY, RPR, 23 NOTARY PUBLIC AT LARGE MY COMMISSION EXPIRES: 24 July 18, 1994 25