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Deposition from United States v. SFWMD, et al., Case No. 88-1886-CIV-HOEVELER |
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Deposition from United States v. SFWMD, et al., Case No. 88-1886-CIV-HOEVELER |
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1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2
CASE NO. 88-1886-CIV (Hoeveler)
3
4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
5 Plaintiff, )
v. )
6 )
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
7 DISTRICT, et al., )
Defendants. )
8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
9 1601 Belvedere Road
West Palm Beach, Florida
10 December 12, 1990
9:50 A.M.
11
12
13
14 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT RATCLIFFE
15
16
17
18 Taken before MAXYNE BURSKY,
19 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public,
20 pursuant to Notice issued in the above cause.
21 - - - - - - -
22
23
24
25
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
2
1 APPEARANCES
2
3 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:
4 DEXTER LEHTINEN, ESQ.
United States Attorney for the Southern
5 District of Florida
155 South Miami Avenue
6 Suite 600
Miami, Florida 33130
7 BY: MAUREEN DONLAN,
Assistant United States Attorney
8
9 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT South Florida Water
Management District:
10
STANLEY J. NIEGO, ESQ.
11 Box 24680
3301 Gun Club Road
12 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416
BY: TONI LAFUENTE, ESQ.
13 -And-
JACKIE WATERS, ESQ.
14 South Florida Water Management District
15
16
17 INDEX
Witness Direct Cross
18 ROBERT RATCLIFFE
19 By Ms. Donlan: 3 --
20
21 EXHIBITS
NUMBER PAGE
22 RR1 18
RR2 72
23 RR3 81
24
25
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
3
1 R O B E R T R A T C L I F F E,
2 called as a witness, having been
3 duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. DONLAN:
6 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, my name is Maureen Donlan.
7 I'm here today on behalf of the United States.
8 I don't know if you are familiar with the
9 deposition process. Basically what it is, I ask you
10 various questions, you respond to the best of your
11 ability. If there is anything that I ask you that you
12 don't understand, please let me know and I'll be glad
13 to rephrase it.
14 Please state your full name for the record.
15 A. Robert Francis Ratcliffe, Jr.
16 Q. What is your residential address?
17 A. 533 Springdale Circle.
18 Q. Springdale, is that one word?
19 A. Yes. Palm Springs, Florida, 33461.
20 Q. What is your business address?
21 A. 3301 Gun Club Road.
22 Q. Who are you employed by?
23 A. South Florida Water Management District.
24 Q. What is your position at the South Florida
25 Water Management District?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
4
1 A. Regulatory field representative.
2 Q. Would you briefly describe for me what your
3 responsibilities are as a regulatory field
4 representative?
5 A. I inspect and investigate the construction
6 projects that we permit to our permitting process in
7 the Regulation Department, answer complaints, work on
8 enforcements, make aerial inspections of construction
9 projects or applications and enforcements, make
10 special investigations for either my boss or someone
11 in Regulation or the executive office.
12 Q. Is there a particular area, geographical
13 area that you are responsible for?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What is that area?
16 A. From Boca Raton to a little north of PGA
17 Boulevard. If you want to get more specific it would
18 be Township 42 through 47 in Palm Beach County.
19 Q. The PGA Boulevard that you refer to, is
20 that PGA Boulevard -- you are going to have to answer
21 because the court reporter can't take down when you
22 just nod.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where is that PGA Boulevard located?
25 A. Seven or eight miles from here in the north
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
5
1 end of the county.
2 Q. Are there certain eastern and western
3 boundaries of the area that you are responsible for?
4 A. Technically from the coast all the way to
5 the county line.
6 Q. And again you are talking about the Palm
7 Beach County line?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long have you been a regulatory field
10 representative?
11 A. Since October of 1985.
12 Q. What position did you hold prior to that
13 time?
14 A. I was a hydrologic data technician in data
15 management with the District.
16 Q. For what period of time did you hold that
17 position?
18 A. From August of 1981 to October 1985.
19 Q. What were the nature of your
20 responsibilities as a hydrological data technician?
21 A. Tabulated rainfall charts and stage charts,
22 also data collection of those charts either by truck
23 or from the helicopter and stream gauging.
24 Q. What is stream gauging?
25 A. Basically taking flow measurements, how
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
6
1 much flow is going through a stream or canal.
2 Q. What position did you hold prior to that?
3 A. Field worker at the field station.
4 Q. What were your responsibilities as a field
5 worker?
6 A. All kinds of things, mowing levies, driving
7 dump trucks, whatever.
8 Q. What field station was that?
9 A. West Palm Beach field station.
10 Q. For what period of time did you work as a
11 field worker?
12 A. April 1981 to August 1981.
13 Q. Prior to that time, what was your position
14 with the District?
15 A. There was none. I wasn't employed by the
16 District.
17 Q. You joined the District in April of 1981?
18 A. April of 1981.
19 Q. Where were you employed prior to joining
20 the District?
21 A. I was a meteorological aide with the
22 National Weather Service at the airport.
23 Q. How long did you work for the National
24 Weather Service?
25 A. Technically it wasn't for the weather
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
7
1 service, it was under the old CETA program for the
2 Federal government. It was February of 1980 to March
3 1981 -- I mean, April of 1981.
4 (Mr. Wyckoff enters the room)
5 MR. WYCKOFF: If I can interrupt for just a
6 second, my name is Doug Wyckoff, I represent the
7 Cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston. Currently I am
8 on 30(b)(6) depositions which started on December 3
9 and are continuing through this week and possibly next
10 week.
11 In addition, we have attorneys in
12 Tallahassee at the document production. We have an
13 attorney here at the deposition of Leslie Wedderburn.
14 We have another attorney in Homestead at the Soukup
15 deposition.
16 The Cities are unable to participate in
17 this deposition due to the unreasonable and unfair
18 discovery practices of the United States which have
19 apparently been acquiesced in by the District.
20 We object to this deposition. We further
21 note for the record that the notice of this deposition
22 has not complied with local Rule 10(i)8.
23 Thank you.
24 (Mr. Wyckoff leaves the room)
25 MS. DONLAN: Let's just put on the record
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
8
1 also it is my understanding that the attorneys for the
2 Cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston have represented
3 to the United States that they would not be objecting
4 to the taking of this deposition. That was the reason
5 for this deposition proceeding.
6 MS. LAFUENTE: And for the record, we note
7 Mr. Doug Wyckoff's objection but we are not going to
8 say that we will reproduce Mr. Ratcliffe for the
9 reasons he stated.
10 BY MS. DONLAN:
11 Q. We were discussing your prior position.
12 You said you were acting as a meteorological aide?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you were explaining to me exactly who
15 you were working for.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you continue, please. Who were you
18 working for when you were working as a meteorological
19 aide?
20 A. The Federal government.
21 Q. Was there a particular branch of the
22 Federal government?
23 A. Like I said, it was under the CETA program.
24 Q. Prior to your working as a meteorological
25 aide, what position did you hold?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
9
1 A. Basically construction work.
2 Q. Did you work for any particular company?
3 A. I think it was JF Construction.
4 Q. Is that here in West Palm Beach?
5 A. It was.
6 Q. Is it still in existence?
7 A. Not as far as I know.
8 Q. For what time period did you work for JF
9 Construction?
10 A. On and off from about May of 1979 to
11 December of 1979.
12 Q. When you say you worked on and off, is that
13 because that goes with the nature of the work, it is
14 just an irregular type of work?
15 A. And then I took a couple of months off and
16 went back to New York where I'm from.
17 Q. Where were you working prior to May of
18 1979?
19 A. Lake Worth Auto Supply.
20 Q. What type of work were you doing there?
21 A. Delivering parts.
22 Q. How long a period of time did you work at
23 Lake Worth Auto Supply?
24 A. About two months.
25 Q. Prior to that time, where did you work?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
10
1 A. J.C. Penney.
2 Q. What did you do at J.C. Penney?
3 A. Stock work.
4 Q. How long a period of time did you work
5 there?
6 A. November of 1978 to, I guess it would be
7 March or April of 1979.
8 Q. Where did you work prior to J.C. Penney?
9 A. New York.
10 Q. What were you doing in New York, what type
11 of work?
12 A. A little difficult to explain. The name of
13 the company was Curious Research. It basically dealt
14 with vertical gardens made of fiberglass.
15 Q. What kind of work did you do for them?
16 A. Helped make the fiberglass, set up the
17 gardens, planted.
18 Q. What period of time did you work for
19 Curious Research?
20 A. May of 1978 to September of 1978.
21 Q. Prior to that time, where did you work?
22 A. Full-time student.
23 Q. Where were you a full-time student?
24 A. State University of New York at Brockport.
25 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, on the notice of taking
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
11
1 deposition duces tecum, one of the items you were
2 requested to bring with you was a copy of your resume.
3 Have you brought that with you or do you have such a
4 copy?
5 A. I have a confidential resume I did not
6 bring.
7 Q. Why do you refer to it as a confidential
8 resume?
9 A. It's usually, a confidential resume is a
10 resume that I guess you don't want your employers to
11 know about or you use when looking for outside work.
12 Q. Is there some particular reason why it was
13 not brought today?
14 MS. LAFUENTE: Mr. Ratcliffe's resume is
15 not a resume that he used for his employment with the
16 District. He has a resume that he used when he first
17 became employed with the District that's about ten
18 years old that he hasn't updated.
19 From my understanding the resume he is
20 talking about is something that he uses for other
21 types of work that would not be related to this.
22 Q. Do you have a resume that's a current
23 resume or within the last five years?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does it relate, does it list, for example,
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
12
1 the District employment that you have?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. DONLAN: I think it should have been
4 produced today.
5 MS. LAFUENTE: It was my understanding that
6 it wasn't related to the work that he is doing at the
7 District and we will provide that when we go back at
8 lunchtime.
9 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, did you get your degree at
10 the State University of New York?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That was a four-year degree?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was your major?
15 A. Earth science.
16 Q. What other types of courses did you take at
17 the state university?
18 A. Geology courses, meteorological courses,
19 geography; those are the main courses for earth
20 science.
21 Q. Have you taken any other kind of courses
22 since you graduated?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What courses are those?
25 A. I've taken a private pilot course.
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
13
1 Q. To get your pilot's license?
2 A. The course was at junior college for the
3 exam.
4 Q. Do you have your pilot's license?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you taken any other kinds of courses?
7 A. I've taken a couple of continuing ed
8 courses.
9 Q. In what areas?
10 A. Political science, current events type
11 thing.
12 Q. Have you taken any courses that have been
13 sponsored by the District or would be of assistance to
14 you in your current position?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What type of courses are those?
17 A. I took a Florida hydric soils course, a
18 one-day seminar in Gainesville.
19 Q. What is Florida hydric soils?
20 A. Basically soils that are wetlands,
21 wetland-related.
22 Q. Are there any other courses that you can
23 think of?
24 A. Taken some, how to deal with the media
25 course, how to deal with angry people, a writing
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
14
1 course and maybe a few others I just don't recall
2 right now.
3 Q. The one-day seminar that you attended on
4 hydric soils, is that something that was sponsored by
5 the District?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall who was sponsoring that
8 particular course?
9 A. Some state organization.
10 Q. Can you think of any other courses that you
11 have attended or seminars?
12 A. With the District?
13 Q. Or in general since you graduated from
14 college.
15 A. There may have been one or two others but I
16 can't recall right now.
17 Q. Did you attend any other colleges besides
18 the State University of New York?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which colleges are those?
21 A. A semester at FAU, Florida Atlantic
22 University and a summer session at Community College
23 of the Finger Lakes.
24 Q. When did you attend the one semester at
25 FAU?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
15
1 A. The fall of 1976.
2 Q. What was your purpose in attending that one
3 semester?
4 A. At the time I came down on spring break and
5 I liked it and I just wanted to try going to school
6 here.
7 Q. What made you decide to leave FAU?
8 A. They weren't really offering the courses
9 that I wanted so I went back.
10 Q. When again did you graduate from the state
11 university?
12 A. May of 1978.
13 Q. And you also mentioned the community
14 college at Finger Lakes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where is that?
17 A. Canandagua, New York.
18 Q. What did you study during that summer
19 session?
20 A. I took a math course and photography
21 course.
22 Q. When did you attend the community college?
23 A. Summer of 1976.
24 Q. Are there any other universities that you
25 attended?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
16
1 A. That one course that I took at Palm Beach
2 Junior College.
3 Q. What course was that?
4 A. That was the private pilot course and then
5 the continuing ed courses I have taken from Palm
6 Beach.
7 Q. And the continuing ed courses were the ones
8 dealing with political science?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Going back to your responsibilities now as
11 a regulatory field representative, you said something
12 to the effect that you inspect and investigate
13 permits. Can you explain for me a little more exactly
14 what your role is and what you normally do in that
15 type of situation?
16 A. Our Regulation Department issues the
17 permits and I inspect the project to make sure the
18 construction in completion complies with the special
19 conditions of our permit.
20 Q. Is that the first time that you are
21 involved, once the construction is completed?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What is the first point at which you would
24 become involved in this permitting process?
25 A. When an application is made to the
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
17
1 District, we make an initial inspection and then once
2 a month we inspect it until it is permitted.
3 Q. Maybe the easiest way to approach it is to
4 start from the very beginning. The District receives
5 an application for a permit.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What happens to that application or what is
8 the first step that you take in regard to that
9 application?
10 A. I don't take any steps to it. If it is a
11 Surface Water Management application, our Surface
12 Water staff reviews it. They send us a location map
13 and some extra plans and we make an initial inspection
14 on it.
15 Q. Do you know who in the Surface Water
16 Management Group would review the application?
17 A. Could be one of any number of people.
18 There are many reviewers over there.
19 Q. Do you know of anyone in particular that
20 you can recall?
21 A. Ed Yaun, the supervisor, Jenny Hiscock is a
22 supervisor, Kevin Dickson is a supervisor. They, I
23 assume, delegate to the people below them.
24 Q. So that group would review the permit
25 application and then they would forward to you a
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
18
1 location map and plans.
2 A. The applicant is supposed to send in six
3 sets of everything and the field representative is
4 supposed to get a set.
5 Q. When you talk about a location map, what do
6 you mean by that?
7 A. Where it is, where it is in the county,
8 where it is in the District.
9 Q. And the plans, what would that refer to?
10 A. The actual site plans, construction plans.
11 Q. You then take that information and you go
12 out and make your initial inspection, is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How is your initial inspection normally
15 done?
16 A. Normally it's done on our aerial
17 inspection.
18 Q. When you say an aerial inspection, you are
19 referring by helicopter?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who besides yourself would normally go out
22 on the initial inspection?
23 A. Usually I am accompanied by my supervisor,
24 Eric Botka.
25 Q. When you make the initial inspection, what
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
19
1 are you looking for?
2 A. Looking to see, make sure they haven't
3 started work already, see if there is wetlands on
4 site, see if there might be any known or historical
5 drainage problems in relation or related to the site
6 that we could pass on to the reviewer.
7 Q. If there were wetlands on the site, what
8 would you do then?
9 A. Normally you can tell that there's wetlands
10 on the site because they are supposed to submit an
11 aerial, so the reviewer already knows, plus our
12 reviewer in our Natural Resource Management Section
13 also gets a copy.
14 Q. Basically what you are doing, you are going
15 out there to prepare some sort of a report for the
16 reviewer?
17 A. I only get back to the reviewer if there's
18 a problem.
19 Q. Do you normally prepare some sort of a
20 report on your initial inspection?
21 A. Yes, we have a computer printout and we'll
22 indicate whether there is any activity yes or no and
23 then turn that over to our enforcement section.
24 Q. If you were to see that there were wetlands
25 on the site, would you make a notation of that on your
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
20
1 report?
2 A. Basically, it's not so much that there's
3 wetlands, it's just to make sure that there's no work
4 going on in the wetlands, that they are not being
5 destroyed.
6 Q. Are you also looking to make sure that the
7 permit application is not seeking to do some sort of
8 construction on the wetlands?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you see that the wetlands are not
11 involved in the construction process and no activity
12 is occurring on the wetlands, does that mean that you
13 then don't make any notation at all concerning
14 wetlands?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. But if you saw that there was activity
17 going on concerning the wetlands, what would you do
18 then?
19 A. If they were destroying the wetlands in any
20 way, we would make up an inspection report.
21 Q. So the inspection report is only prepared
22 if you see there is a problem?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is anyone else involved in preparing the
25 inspection report?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
21
1 A. My supervisor, Eric Botka.
2 Q. What is Mr. Botka's role when he goes out
3 for the initial inspection?
4 A. Well, generally we conduct the aerial
5 inspections, you know, together at the same time, so
6 it is just another pair of eyes, really.
7 Q. You said he would also be involved in
8 preparing the actual inspection report?
9 A. He would add additional comments to my
10 report.
11 Q. Is there anyone else who would be involved
12 in preparing that inspection report?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Would the inspection report normally be
15 handwritten comments that you would write as you are
16 doing the initial inspection?
17 A. I would come back to the office, write up a
18 report, handwritten usually. Eric would make his
19 comments.
20 Q. And then where would the inspection report
21 go?
22 A. It would go to Eric's supervisor and
23 primarily to our Enforcement Section.
24 Q. Who is Eric's supervisor?
25 A. Ed Maciejko.
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
22
1 Q. Can you spell that last name?
2 A. M A C I E J K O.
3 Q. What is Mr. Maciejko's position?
4 A. Supervising professional.
5 Q. What division is he in at the District?
6 A. Field Engineering.
7 Q. Do you know what Mr. Maciejko does with the
8 inspection report once he receives it?
9 A. He reviews it and he may or may not make
10 any comments on it or suggestions.
11 Q. What does he do with it then?
12 A. Again, primarily it goes to our Enforcement
13 Section. They handle it.
14 Q. When you refer to the Enforcement Section,
15 which division at the District are you referring to?
16 A. Field Engineering.
17 Q. Do you know who in particular would receive
18 that inspection report at the Field Engineering
19 Division?
20 A. Either Rudy Smith or Don Loving.
21 Q. Do you know what their titles are?
22 A. Rudy is a supervising professional. I'm
23 not sure exactly Don's, I think it is Regulatory
24 Professional III.
25 Q. Do you know what supervising professional,
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
23
1 what that means or what type of responsibilities they
2 have?
3 A. He's responsible for Don, of course, and
4 their enforcement field rep. He makes the final
5 decisions on the enforcements.
6 Q. You are referring to Rudy Smith?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you say he makes the final decisions
9 on enforcements, what do you mean by that?
10 A. That may be too broad a statement. He's
11 the chief of enforcement for the District, but of
12 course, everything is, it's him, our division
13 director, the department division director and legal
14 staff.
15 Q. Who is your division director?
16 A. Arlan Pankow, P A N K O W.
17 Q. So Rudy Smith would forward on the
18 inspection report to Arlan Pankow?
19 A. It would be more of a combined coordination
20 effort.
21 Q. Do you have any idea whether they get
22 together on some regular basis to discuss these
23 inspection reports or how that process works?
24 A. I believe they get together on a regular
25 basis, but I am more or less out of that loop.
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
24
1 Q. Do you have anything at all to do with the
2 enforcement part of the process?
3 A. The initial discovery and inspection report
4 and continuing inspection.
5 Q. Are you ever contacted by anyone at the
6 District to discuss your inspection report?
7 A. Sometimes Don or Rudy or possibly one of
8 our environmental staff.
9 Q. Do they ever ask for your opinion as to
10 what action should be taken?
11 A. Yes, I guess you could say so.
12 Q. Do you recall the last time that you were
13 asked for your advice about any particular report that
14 you prepared?
15 A. An enforcement report?
16 Q. Yes, the initial inspection report.
17 A. Well, initial and enforcement is two
18 different things.
19 Q. Explain the difference to me.
20 A. Again, it is enforcement if they are
21 breaking our rules and regulations.
22 Q. How are you involved with the enforcement
23 report?
24 A. I initiate it and I'm the one who makes the
25 initial report.
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
25
1 Q. Under what circumstances do you make an
2 enforcement report?
3 A. Again, if they are breaking our rules and
4 regulations.
5 Q. How do you learn that a particular project
6 is breaking your rules and regulations?
7 A. You need a permit to work, to conduct work
8 on the site or you can't, like I said, you can't
9 destroy wetlands.
10 Q. You are talking about situations where a
11 particular project has not obtained a permit?
12 A. I don't understand.
13 Q. You are talking about breaking of certain
14 rules and regulations. Is that because the permit has
15 not been obtained or there have been violations of the
16 permit?
17 A. It hasn't been obtained.
18 Q. How do you learn that a permit has not been
19 obtained?
20 A. We do some investigation. We check our
21 quad sheets.
22 Q. How does it first come to your attention
23 that there may be some problem, that maybe a permit
24 has not been applied for or that a permit needs to be
25 applied for?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
(305) 371-1537
26
1 A. Either I will find it or sometimes somebody
2 will give us a call, a concerned citizen or another
3 government agency.
4 Q. How would you find out?
5 A. Well, my job is to be in the field and I
6 travel a lot and I see things. I'm paid to keep my
7 eyes open.
8 Q. So during your normal inspections you may
9 come across a project that may lead you to think, I
10 better check and see if they do have a permit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you do check and you find out that a
13 particular project does not have a permit and in your
14 opinion they should have a permit, what do you do?
15 A. Make an inspection report.
16 Q. Which you also refer to as an enforcement
17 report or is that different?
18 A. It's different.
19 Q. You make an inspection report and then what
20 do you do?
21 A. Again, I submit it to my supervisor. He
22 would make his comments.
23 Q. And then it would go over to the
24 Enforcement Group?
25 A. If it was an enforcement.
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1 Q. If it was a situation where a permit should
2 have been applied for, in your opinion should have
3 been applied for, would it then be an enforcement
4 problem?
5 A. Sometimes, but not necessarily.
6 Q. In what situations would it be an
7 enforcement problem?
8 A. If they were digging in wetlands, if they
9 were doing major earth work.
10 Q. What type of situations would it not be an
11 enforcement problem?
12 A. If it was a little half acre 7 Eleven or
13 service station.
14 Q. Why would that not be an enforcement
15 problem?
16 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
17 Go ahead, answer it.
18 A. Generally those type of projects are in the
19 urban city areas and there's all development around
20 them any ways, so almost all the time there would be
21 no wetlands or any other type of problems with it.
22 Q. But in that type of situation, would you
23 still, if you had seen a 7 Eleven or a service
24 station, would that have caused you to fill out some
25 sort of an inspection report?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. So if you had prepared an inspection
3 report, would it then necessarily be an enforcement
4 type of problem?
5 A. For that, no.
6 Q. When are those situations where you would
7 fill out an inspection report where it would not go to
8 the Enforcement Group?
9 A. Any type of inspection report?
10 Q. Just to give me an example, because I don't
11 understand basically what you are saying.
12 A. Just a typical, could be a deficiency in
13 that permitted project.
14 Q. Why would that not be an enforcement
15 problem?
16 A. A deficiency?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. That's the way it's set up.
19 Q. Do you see the problem that I am having?
20 You are telling me that you prepare these inspection
21 reports and normally they go to the Enforcement Group.
22 You just said that doesn't always occur. I am trying
23 to understand when it would go to the Enforcement
24 Group and in what situations it wouldn't go to the
25 Enforcement Group.
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1 A. Common sense.
2 Q. I guess I am lacking in that because I
3 don't understand it. Can you explain a little more to
4 me what type of situations that would go?
5 A. If you have a hundred-acre site that they
6 are digging around in the wetlands, that's
7 enforcement. If you have some guy with a half acre 7
8 Eleven going in, no wetlands on the site, no
9 historical drainage problems, that's not enforcement.
10 Q. Why would you prepare an inspection report?
11 What is the purpose of preparing the inspection report
12 if it is not ultimately to go for enforcement
13 purposes?
14 A. It could be any number of things. It could
15 be a complaint, it could be a deficiency, it could be
16 a special inspection, it could be a final inspection;
17 numerous things.
18 Q. So if the initial reason for your making
19 the inspection was that you had received a complaint
20 from a third party, you would then automatically
21 prepare an inspection report?
22 A. Would you repeat that?
23 Q. If the reason that you had gone out to do
24 the initial inspection or to do an inspection was
25 because you had received a complaint from a third
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1 party, would you then automatically do an inspection
2 report?
3 A. If it was a valid complaint.
4 Q. You also referred to the enforcement
5 report. Who prepares the enforcement report?
6 A. Rudy Smith and Don Loving.
7 Q. Do they prepare that report after reviewing
8 your inspection report?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you ever seen any of these enforcement
11 reports?
12 A. It's hard to say if it's exactly a report.
13 Most of the reports are generated from myself or Eric
14 or one of the field representatives. I guess you can
15 say the actual enforcement reports are based on our
16 reports. Maybe they are not technically called
17 reports, expanding the continuing investigation of the
18 enforcement.
19 Q. So basically the enforcement reports are
20 giving further directions as to what further action
21 needs to be taken?
22 A. I believe so, yes.
23 Q. Who are they normally directed toward?
24 A. Again, it's a coordination between our
25 enforcement, legal, mainly enforcement and legal with,
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1 of course, input from our division director.
2 Q. Do the enforcement reports ever direct you
3 to take some further action?
4 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
5 A. Any time that Don or Rudy, they may come
6 across some information, like I said, I'm usually out
7 of the loop. If something comes up and they want me
8 to make an inspection to let them know what the
9 current status is, I'll make another inspection.
10 Q. Are there any other personnel in the
11 Enforcement Group that are dealing with these
12 enforcement reports?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you name them for me?
15 A. Al Harkabus.
16 Q. Can you spell that last name?
17 A. H A R K A B U S.
18 Q. What is his position?
19 A. Enforcement field representative.
20 Q. As enforcement field representative, do you
21 have any idea what his responsibilities are?
22 A. Some of them.
23 Q. Could you describe those for me?
24 A. He works on the computer, prepares maps,
25 probably assists in the writing of some of the
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1 enforcement reports. He also makes some aerial
2 inspections.
3 Q. Under what circumstances does he make
4 aerial inspections?
5 A. I'm not sure exactly how they are working
6 it over there now. He flies once or twice a month,
7 either the whole District or half of it.
8 Q. What is he looking for when he makes his
9 aerial inspections?
10 A. Any type of illegal activity.
11 Q. How are his aerial inspections different
12 from the kind that you conduct?
13 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
14 A. Most of my inspections are construction
15 inspections with some, what we call monthly
16 inspections.
17 Q. What type of inspections does he do?
18 A. He would do, I assume, special inspections.
19 Q. What do you mean by special inspections?
20 A. He sometimes helps out our remote offices
21 with the aerials and if there is a big project that
22 may be out in the middle of nowhere and he is the one
23 who saw it, then we might ask him to follow up.
24 Q. Do you know if he normally prepares
25 reports, inspection reports after he does these aerial
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1 inspections?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Are there any other individuals in the
4 Enforcement Group that are involved with the
5 preparation of these enforcement reports?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are there any other personnel of the
8 District in any other division that are involved with
9 either the initial inspection reports or these
10 enforcement reports?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who would that be?
13 A. Our environmental staff.
14 Q. Are there any particular persons on the
15 environmental staff that deal with these particular
16 inspection reports or enforcement reports?
17 A. They all do. It just depends on the
18 geographical area.
19 Q. And the geographical area that you cover,
20 who are the people on the environmental staff that are
21 involved?
22 A. It would be Debbie Goss, Lisa Childs, Anita
23 Carey.
24 Q. What are their positions?
25 A. I don't know the exact title, some type of
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1 environmentalist.
2 Q. Do you have some idea of the type of duties
3 that they have?
4 A. Some.
5 Q. Could you explain them to me?
6 MS. LAFUENTE: If you don't know, you don't
7 need to speculate on it.
8 A. They make site inspections initially
9 usually with a consultant or sometimes on their own to
10 verify whether there's wetlands or any potential
11 environmental impacts.
12 Q. The site inspections that they do, the
13 environmental staff, are those done subsequent to the
14 initial inspection done by you?
15 A. Sometimes.
16 Q. Are there certain situations where their
17 site inspections would be done before your initial
18 inspection was done?
19 A. I would say a lot of times they are done
20 before mine are done.
21 Q. How do they normally decide when a site
22 inspection should be done, the environmental staff?
23 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
24 A. They get a copy just like I do or they are
25 contacted ahead of time by the consultant.
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1 Q. They get a copy of what?
2 A. The application or sometimes they will do a
3 preapplication meeting.
4 Q. What is a preapplication meeting?
5 A. Sometimes an owner or developer will meet
6 with our environmental staff to go over a site
7 inspection on his property to see what, sometimes what
8 he can and can't do with the site.
9 Q. The site inspection that the environmental
10 staff does, is that the same type of site inspection
11 that you do?
12 A. No, theirs is a lot more detailed
13 concerning wetlands.
14 Q. Do you know exactly what they are looking
15 for when they do their site inspections?
16 A. Some of the things.
17 Q. What are some of the things?
18 A. Flora, fauna, hydric soils.
19 Q. Are the personnel on the environmental
20 staff broken up into handling different geographical
21 areas?
22 A. As far as I know, yes.
23 Q. Do you know which particular area Ms. Goss
24 covers?
25 A. Not exactly.
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1 Q. Do you know which particular area any of
2 the personnel that you mentioned cover?
3 A. All of them cover at least a portion of my
4 area in the past, Palm Beach County.
5 Q. Do you know who is covering that area now?
6 A. As far as I know, Lisa and Anita, but they
7 switch things around a lot over there.
8 Q. That was Lisa Childs?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And Anita --
11 A. Carey.
12 Q. Who is the supervisor of Lisa Childs and
13 Anita Carey?
14 A. I believe Debbie is, Debbie Goss or Terry
15 Bates.
16 Q. Do you know if the environmental staff when
17 they make their aerial inspections, if they prepare
18 any sort of report?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You also mentioned that the environmental
21 staff sometimes when they do their aerial inspections,
22 they bring along a consultant. What type of
23 consultant would that be?
24 A. Most of the time it would be an on the
25 ground inspection. The consultant would be an
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1 engineering consultant or an environmental consultant,
2 someone obtained by the owner or developer.
3 Q. Does that consultant go along at the
4 request of the District or at the request of the
5 owner?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You also mentioned that you are involved in
8 answering complaints. If someone were to call the
9 District and complain that there was some sort of a
10 violation relating to a permit, how would you learn of
11 that?
12 A. How would I learn --
13 Q. That the person had called and that a
14 complaint had been made.
15 A. The phone call is usually directed to me.
16 Q. Do you get all the phone calls or
17 complaints from third parties that deal with your
18 geographical area?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Which particular complaints get referred to
21 you?
22 A. I guess all of them that my supervisor
23 can't handle over the phone.
24 Q. So your supervisor is also involved with
25 answering the phone calls or the complaints that are
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1 coming in?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is there anyone else who answers or deals
4 personally with these people who are calling with
5 complaints?
6 A. Sometimes.
7 Q. Who would that be?
8 A. It depends, if one of us is on vacation or
9 both of us, someone else would be assigned to cover in
10 the interim.
11 Q. But normally it would be only you and Mr.
12 Botka?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is Mr. Botka's title with the
15 District?
16 A. Regulatory professional I, I believe.
17 Q. Are there any other personnel that report
18 directly to Mr. Botka?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When you do get a phone call from someone
21 who has a complaint regarding the permitting, do you
22 normally prepare some sort of a report or notation
23 that you have received this phone call?
24 A. If it's a legitimate complaint.
25 Q. What do you mean by a legitimate complaint?
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1 A. If there's actually something going on that
2 concerns the District. Most complaints are just
3 flooding complaints or low lake levels. They are not
4 generally enforcement-related.
5 Q. And you are only concerned with those
6 complaints that are enforcement-related?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So if you got a call complaining about
9 flooding, you would do an inspection?
10 A. Sometimes. Again if it's -- usually I
11 would, but I'd need to substantiate some things.
12 Q. What type of things would you need to
13 substantiate?
14 A. The location, if there's been any rainfall,
15 it could be a chronic complainer.
16 Q. Do you also respond to any letters that you
17 may receive from people with complaints regarding
18 permitting?
19 A. Myself?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Eric would respond to those.
22 Q. Do you know if Eric has particular files
23 devoted strictly to that type of correspondence?
24 A. I believe so, but they are his files, I
25 don't know.
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1 Q. What type of information would be contained
2 in any files that you might have in your office?
3 A. In any files?
4 Q. Dealing with the work that you are doing at
5 the District.
6 A. A lot of different things.
7 Q. Are there any particular reports or any
8 particular type of items that you prepare on a regular
9 basis?
10 A. I try to keep everything that Field
11 Engineering generates in the file, if it's worthy of a
12 file.
13 Q. So you would keep copies of all your
14 initial inspection reports?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Why don't you keep copies of those?
17 A. Again, we just take a printout off the
18 computer. I mark whether there is activity or not and
19 turn it over to the enforcement. Then I chuck the old
20 one.
21 Q. You mentioned originally that you also work
22 on enforcements. Other than doing the initial
23 inspection reports, what type of work do you do
24 regarding enforcements?
25 A. The initial enforcement violation report
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1 and subsequent inspections, followup inspections.
2 Q. The initial enforcement violation report,
3 is that the same as your initial inspection report?
4 A. I suppose it could be but it's not very
5 often.
6 Q. Is there a different form that you use for
7 that?
8 A. Again, the initial is just a computer
9 printout that we've got on the disc and we have
10 regular inspection forms that were used for report
11 writing.
12 Q. And the initial enforcement violation
13 report is on the regular inspection report, regular
14 form?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is the initial enforcement violation report
17 also turned over to the enforcement staff?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You mentioned that the deputy division
20 director was also involved in this enforcement
21 process. How is the deputy division director
22 involved?
23 A. I think I said the division director.
24 Q. So the deputy, or there is no deputy
25 division director?
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1 A. I guess there is one now. He is based in
2 Okeechobee right now.
3 Q. He is not involved in the enforcement
4 process?
5 A. Not with me.
6 Q. What is the role of the legal staff in the
7 enforcement process?
8 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
9 A. They again coordinate with our enforcement
10 staff concerning the rules and regulations violated
11 and what we, the District, basically want to do about
12 it.
13 Q. Do you know if there is any set procedure
14 that the enforcement staff or the legal staff follow
15 to coordinate?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Do you know if there is anyone in
18 particular in Legal who is involved with the
19 enforcement aspect?
20 A. The only name I have heard is John Fumero.
21 Q. Can you spell that last name?
22 A. F U M E R O, I believe that's right.
23 Q. You also mentioned that you did special
24 investigations. What type of special investigations
25 do you do? I think it was special investigations,
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1 were the words that you used.
2 A. Yes. What kind?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. It could be something generated from the
5 executive office.
6 Q. What type of special investigation would be
7 generated by the executive office?
8 A. Say, if a citizen or whoever writes to the
9 executive office, say Mr. Wodraska or whatever, it
10 gets passed down the line to us and it becomes a
11 special investigation more or less to the EO.
12 Q. So if you were to receive a request from
13 the executive office to investigate a particular
14 complaint that they had received, you would go out and
15 do your initial inspection or aerial inspection. How
16 would you then report back to the executive office?
17 A. It depends whether they requested something
18 in writing or verbal, I guess.
19 Q. If they requested a written response, would
20 you prepare that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who would prepare that?
23 A. Eric would do most of it.
24 Q. If they did not request a written response,
25 would you orally communicate with them?
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1 A. Probably Eric would.
2 Q. You also mentioned that you might do some
3 sort of a special investigation for your boss. Under
4 what circumstances would that happen?
5 A. That would be probably something through
6 the executive office that filtered through him or it
7 could be from our department director.
8 Q. What type of special investigation would
9 you do for your department director?
10 A. It could be something similar to the
11 executive office type.
12 Q. Meaning that if he receives --
13 A. Well, if something was directed directly to
14 him.
15 Q. You also mentioned doing special
16 investigations for Regulatory?
17 A. For Surface Water reviewers.
18 Q. What type of special investigations would
19 they ask you to do?
20 A. They may want to verify something
21 Engineering submitted with the application.
22 Q. Let's go back to the permitting process.
23 The District has gotten in the application, it has
24 been forwarded to you, you have done your initial
25 inspection.
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1 What is the next process that the District
2 would take regarding that application?
3 A. It's all in Surface Water Management.
4 Q. It would be the Surface Water Management
5 Division that would handle it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know which particular person or
8 persons in that division would receive the
9 application?
10 A. I assume that one of the three people I
11 named before would delegate it.
12 Q. The three people that you named for the --
13 A. Ed Yaun, Jenny Hiscock and Kevin Dickson.
14 Q. So the Surface Water Division would receive
15 the application and they would also receive your
16 aerial inspection information?
17 A. Only if there was a problem.
18 Q. Do you know what action they then take with
19 the application?
20 A. If there was a problem? I don't
21 understand.
22 Q. Either way, if there is a problem or if
23 there isn't a problem. What further steps do they
24 need to take with the application?
25 A. They continue reviewing what the engineer
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1 submitted.
2 Q. This is the engineer that was hired by the
3 owner, is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The people that you have mentioned in the
6 Surface Water Division, are they trained engineers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know if they do any sort of
9 inspections of the sites?
10 A. Rarely; sometimes.
11 Q. You said that they review the engineer's
12 work. Do you have any idea of what type of work they
13 do, what it involves, the Surface Water Management
14 Division, when they review the permit application?
15 A. I don't understand. Could you maybe kind
16 of clarify or rephrase it?
17 Q. When the three individuals that you have
18 mentioned, when they receive the permit application,
19 you mentioned that they also review the engineer's
20 work that's contained in the permit application. When
21 they review it, what exactly does that entail?
22 A. A lot of it is just plain number crunching.
23 Q. To determine if the engineer has properly
24 calculated in the permit application?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. If they determine that everything is fine,
2 the permit application has no problem, what is the
3 next step in the process?
4 A. If it's a big project with the staff
5 report, it goes before the Board, Governing Board.
6 Q. Who prepares the staff report?
7 A. The reviewing engineer.
8 Q. Do you know if anyone reviews the staff
9 report before it goes before the Board?
10 A. A supervisor.
11 Q. The three individuals that you have
12 mentioned, Yuan, Jenny Hiscock and Dickson, are they
13 supervisors or reviewing engineers?
14 A. As far as I know, they do both. To be
15 honest, it's hard to keep up with everything that goes
16 on over there, their personnel changes so much.
17 Q. Do you know who those three individuals
18 report to?
19 A. I believe Tony Waterhouse.
20 Q. What is his position with the District?
21 A. I don't know exactly, the exact title.
22 Q. Is he in the Surface Water Division?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Going back again to the Surface Water
25 Division, if they discover there is a problem with the
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1 permit application, what is the next step?
2 A. I guess it depends what kind of problem it
3 is.
4 MS. LAFUENTE: I am going to object to the
5 continuing use of the word "problem;" if we can define
6 it.
7 Q. If there is some reason why they do not
8 give the okay to the permit application, that's what I
9 mean by problem, if there is some deficiency in the
10 permit application, if there is some reason why they
11 are not saying everything is fine and the permit
12 should be granted.
13 If there was some reason that they were
14 saying, wait a minute, there's something wrong here,
15 it needs more information or this permit should not be
16 granted, are there other divisions that would then
17 become involved or is there something that Surface
18 Water would do?
19 A. Other divisions are involved.
20 Q. What other divisions are involved?
21 A. Water Use, Water Quality, Environmental.
22 Q. How is the Water Use Division involved?
23 A. Of course, they are mainly involved if it's
24 a water use permit or application.
25 Q. What would their involvement be if it was a
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1 water use permit or application?
2 A. Same type of things that Surface Water does
3 except water use-related.
4 Q. Is there any particular person in the Water
5 Use Division who would review the permit application?
6 A. Like I said, you kind of get into
7 different, it's water use now, so for water use you
8 have different criteria and different reviewers.
9 Q. You are not involved at all with water use?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What is the involvement of the Water
12 Quality Division in this permitting process?
13 A. Again, part of our rules and regulations,
14 water quality standards have to be met for discharge
15 from these projects, so they do, I guess, their own
16 calculations.
17 Q. Is this something that's a simultaneous
18 process, meaning that they are doing their
19 calculations at the same time that Surface Water is
20 doing their calculations or do they do it first, do
21 they do it subsequent? Is there a particular time
22 process?
23 A. As far as I know, they are looking at the
24 application at the same time. It could be different
25 calculations, though.
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1 Q. Do you know any particular person in the
2 Water Quality Division who reviews permit
3 applications?
4 A. I know the main guy, Steve Anderson.
5 Q. What is his title, do you know?
6 A. I think he's a supervising professional but
7 I'm not positive.
8 Q. Do you know if he does any sort of on-site
9 inspections?
10 A. I know he has done some in the past, so I
11 guess so.
12 Q. Do you have any idea what other type of
13 work he does in connection with reviewing the permit
14 application?
15 A. Not specifically, no.
16 Q. Does Mr. Anderson only deal with a
17 particular geographical area?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Is there anyone else at the Water Quality
20 Division that you know who reviews permit
21 applications?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who would that be?
24 A. Eduardo Lopez, Jay Marshall, as far as I
25 know.
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1 Q. What is Eduardo Lopez' position?
2 A. I don't know his title.
3 Q. Do you know who he reports to?
4 A. As far as I know, Steve.
5 Q. Do you know Jay Marshall's position?
6 A. Not exactly, no.
7 Q. Does he also report to Mr. Anderson?
8 A. As far as I know.
9 Q. Do you know if the Water Quality Division
10 prepares any reports once they have reviewed the
11 permit application?
12 A. As far as I know they do, yes.
13 Q. Do you know if they have any particular
14 name for the report or the comments that they prepare?
15 A. It would be under Water Quality in the
16 staff report.
17 MS. LAFUENTE: Can we go off the record for
18 a minute?
19 (Discussion off the record)
20 (Luncheon recess)
21 AFTERNOON SESSION
22 1:00 p.m.
23 MS. LAFUENTE: Before we go further, as to
24 Mr. Ratcliffe's resume, due to a miscommunication, I
25 hadn't produced it previously but now we are ready to
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1 produce it.
2 (Deposition Exhibit RR 1 was marked for
3 identification)
4 BY MS. DONLAN:
5 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, would you take a look at
6 what we have marked as Exhibit RR 1. I ask if you can
7 identify that.
8 (Pause)
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What is that?
11 A. It is my resume.
12 Q. When was that prepared?
13 A. I believe the winter or spring of 1989.
14 Q. Meaning the winter of 1989, spring of 1990
15 or winter of 1988, spring of 1989?
16 A. It must have been the winter and spring of
17 1989, like January, February, March of 1989, somewhere
18 in there, April, something like that.
19 Q. Were you exploring other employment
20 opportunities at that time?
21 A. Always.
22 Q. Are you currently exploring other
23 employment opportunities?
24 A. I keep my eyes open.
25 Q. Do you have any plans at the present time
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1 to leave your position?
2 A. At this time, no.
3 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, attached to the notice of
4 your deposition was a document entitled duces tecum
5 which asked you to produce various documents. Have
6 you brought with you any of the documents that we have
7 requested?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you have in your possession or custody,
10 any of these documents that are listed on the duces
11 tecum?
12 A. To the best we could figure out, no.
13 Q. Were any of your files produced during the
14 original production session in response to the United
15 States' first request for production?
16 A. I don't believe so.
17 Q. To your knowledge, are there any documents
18 in your files that are responsive to the United
19 States' first request for production?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It was mentioned previously that permit
22 files were not going to be produced. What permit
23 files are there in your department?
24 A. They are backup field files to the main
25 vault files.
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1 Q. What type of information would be in those
2 files?
3 A. Pretty much the same things that are in the
4 main vault permits, the main vault permit.
5 Q. What type of information is in the main
6 vault --
7 A. The permit itself, the staff report, the
8 special conditions, site plans, construction plans,
9 aerials, topographic surveys.
10 Q. Which divisions are involved in preparing
11 the staff report?
12 A. Well, if it's surface water, then it would
13 be Surface Water and some Natural Resource Management.
14 Q. What involvement would Natural Resource
15 Management have in the permitting process?
16 A. Water Quality and Environmental.
17 Q. When you referred previously to the Water
18 Quality Division and Environmental being involved in
19 the permitting process, you were talking as part of
20 the Natural Resource Management Division?
21 A. Yes, they are both in that division.
22 Q. Are they separate divisions, is Water
23 Quality and Environmental separate divisions?
24 A. It's not a separate division, it's a
25 separate section.
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1 Q. Do you know who is the head of the Water
2 Quality Section?
3 A. Steve Anderson.
4 Q. Who is the head of the Environmental
5 Section?
6 A. I guess it would be Stewart Bradow. He's
7 Steve's boss also.
8 Q. Are there any other divisions who
9 contribute to the staff report?
10 A. For Surface Water, no.
11 Q. Am I correct that your knowledge extends
12 solely to Surface Water, you don't have any
13 familiarity with any of the other type of permits?
14 A. A limited amount.
15 Q. Do you know of any of the other divisions
16 that might be involved with the different types of
17 permits that would be contributing to the staff
18 report?
19 A. For Surface Water?
20 Q. No, for different types of permits other
21 than Surface Water.
22 A. There's Water Use, Right-of-Way permits.
23 Q. Are there other divisions that would be
24 contributing to the staff report for those?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Do you know who those are, which divisions?
2 A. Probably Water Use Division. The
3 Right-of-Way is a separate division, it's not in the
4 Department of Regulation.
5 Q. What is the difference between the Water
6 Quality and the Environmental sections?
7 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form.
8 A. Environmental is pretty much what it says.
9 Environmental is wetlands, plants, animals. Water
10 Quality deals mainly, I guess, with what kind of
11 water, the quality of the water that leaves the site.
12 Q. To your knowledge does the Environmental
13 Section deal at all with water quality issues?
14 A. I guess sometimes to a certain degree. I'm
15 not exactly positive in most of the ways, though.
16 Q. When you do the on-site inspections or you
17 do your aerial inspections of different projects, are
18 you concerned with water quality issues?
19 A. If there's a problem, yes.
20 Q. What type of an inspection do you do
21 concerning water quality?
22 A. The main type of inspection concerning
23 water quality that Field Engineering does would be a
24 turbidity violation.
25 Q. How do you determine if there is a
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1 turbidity violation?
2 A. Experience.
3 Q. Do you take any sort of scientific data?
4 A. We take turbidity samples.
5 Q. What is the procedure for taking turbidity
6 samples?
7 A. Turbidity is muddy or cloudy water created
8 by suspended particles. If it's above, if it is
9 departing off-site and if it's going into a clean
10 canal and you have got muddy water, you just see with
11 your eyes that there is a problem and from there you
12 take your samples. There is a certain set procedure
13 that we have.
14 Q. Are you the person who actually takes the
15 samples?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Explain to me the process.
18 A. It's a two-part thing. I will take the
19 initial and then either myself or sometimes somebody
20 from our chemistry lab will come and do a more
21 detailed verification of the water sample.
22 Q. How does this person do a more detailed
23 evaluation?
24 A. They have more specialized equipment.
25 Q. What type of equipment do you use when you
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1 take your samples?
2 A. It's called a nephlometer.
3 Q. Can you spell that?
4 A. N E P H L O M E T E R.
5 Q. How does that work?
6 A. You put the sample in the machine and light
7 is basically shined through and depending upon how
8 much light makes it through the sample, the machine
9 registers, a laboratory unit.
10 Q. Are these samples taken at the site, is the
11 machine brought to the site?
12 A. Yes, by machine.
13 Q. When the person from the chemistry lab
14 comes out, do they take the equipment with them or do
15 they have to bring the samples back to the lab?
16 A. They take it back to the lab.
17 Q. Is there a particular person that you deal
18 with at the chemistry lab?
19 A. I guess mainly Larry Grosser.
20 Q. On what occasions would you ask someone
21 from the chemistry lab to go out with you to a site
22 inspection?
23 A. The other type of water quality violation
24 which would be if someone was dewatering within one
25 mile of a landfill, and then they would take the
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1 samples.
2 Q. Why would you need the chemistry lab to
3 take those samples?
4 A. That's what they do. They are set up for
5 it. They have all the equipment for it.
6 Q. Would your machine not be able to detect if
7 there was a violation?
8 A. No.
9 Q. It would not be able to detect it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you have any other familiarity with
12 water quality issues in the permitting process?
13 A. No.
14 Q. The area that you are responsible for, does
15 that include the EAA?
16 A. I guess part of it technically I go all the
17 way out to the county line which includes western Palm
18 Beach County.
19 Q. Have you ever taken any water quality
20 samples from any area in the EAA?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know if anyone else has ever taken
23 any water quality samples from the EAA?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Who is the area engineer for South Palm
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1 Beach?
2 A. Eric Botka.
3 Q. What is his educational background, what
4 type of an engineer is he?
5 A. I believe he has an ocean engineering
6 background.
7 Q. At the beginning of the permitting process,
8 when you receive the permit application, my
9 understanding is that there is some sort of a 30-day
10 letter that's sent out by the District. Are you
11 familiar with that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who prepares that 30-day letter?
14 A. The reviewing engineer in Surface Water.
15 Q. Do you know if that reviewing engineer
16 receives any input from any other individuals?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who would he receive input from for that
19 30-day letter?
20 A. Besides the engineer for the application,
21 the Environmental Section, Water Quality and sometimes
22 Field Engineering.
23 Q. Would this be in the form of written
24 communications from these divisions?
25 A. I believe so.
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1 Q. Do you know if these are normally reports
2 or correspondence or memos?
3 A. I don't know for sure. I don't generate
4 any myself.
5 Q. Do you know if Eric Botka generates any of
6 them?
7 A. I have never known him to.
8 Q. Do you know who in Field Engineering might
9 generate it?
10 A. Possibly Eric or Ed from time to time. It
11 also could be verbal.
12 Q. When you refer to Ed, who do you refer to?
13 A. Edward Maciejko.
14 Q. Do you ever have any input into the
15 comments that are made in the 30-day letter?
16 A. There's been none that I know of.
17 Q. What is the agricultural staff report?
18 A. I don't understand exactly what you want to
19 know.
20 Q. Have you ever seen a document entitled
21 Agricultural Staff Report?
22 A. It's the same thing as a regular staff
23 report except it's an agricultural project.
24 Q. Have you ever seen an agricultural staff
25 report dealing with any properties in the EAA?
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1 A. Less than a handful.
2 Q. Does the District currently require that
3 projects in the EAA get Surface Water Management
4 permits?
5 A. If they are a brand new project, I would
6 assume they have to, yes.
7 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form.
8 Q. Has the District always required this for
9 as long as you have been with the District?
10 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form.
11 A. As far as I know.
12 Q. Are water quality monitoring programs ever
13 a requirement under a Surface Water Management permit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Under what conditions or in what
16 circumstances?
17 A. It depends. It's out of my area. I don't
18 make the reports or criteria or anything on that.
19 Q. Who would be involved in making that type
20 of a determination, that a monitoring program would be
21 required?
22 A. Water Quality.
23 Q. Which would be Mr. Anderson?
24 A. Mr. Anderson.
25 Q. Are there any biologists that are involved
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1 in your division or that work in your division?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are there any biologists to your knowledge
4 that are involved in the permitting process?
5 A. I believe some of the environmental staff
6 have biology degrees, yes.
7 Q. That would be Mr. Anderson's staff?
8 A. No, the Environmental Section, the
9 environmentalists.
10 Q. Which would be Mr. Bradow?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know in particular any of the people
13 in his group who are biologists?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know if he is in fact a biologist,
16 Mr. Bradow?
17 A. I don't know what his degree is in.
18 Q. Do you know if any of the personnel in the
19 Environmental Section take water quality samples at
20 any of the projects?
21 A. I don't know for sure, possibly Water
22 Quality.
23 Q. Do you know any particular people who might
24 be involved in doing that?
25 A. Steve Anderson and his group, I imagine.
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1 Q. So is the Water Quality Group actually a
2 part of the Environmental Group or are they separate?
3 A. Both. They are both under the Natural
4 Resource Management Division and they work in
5 conjunction with each other, but they are sort of
6 separate.
7 Q. Have you ever performed any tests to
8 measure biological diversity?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know anyone at the District who does
11 that?
12 A. Could you clarify or expound on that a
13 little more, biological diversity?
14 Q. Basically anybody that would be able to go
15 out and tell if there was any sort of imbalance in the
16 Flora and fauna.
17 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form.
18 A. I guess the closest thing would be
19 environmentalists on the environmental staff. I don't
20 know if that's exactly what they do.
21 Q. Does anyone from Research and Evaluation
22 ever go out with you to do on-site inspections?
23 A. There's been once or twice when they have.
24 Q. Who at Research and Evaluation has gone out
25 with you?
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1 A. Jeff Saura.
2 Q. How do you spell the last name?
3 A. S A U R A.
4 Jamie Jenkins, I believe is his last name.
5 Q. What are their positions at the District?
6 A. I don't know their titles. They work for
7 Larry Grosser.
8 Q. Why did they go out with you for
9 inspections?
10 A. It was only once, it was for the water
11 quality violation we discussed before concerning
12 dewatering near a landfill. They took the samples.
13 Q. Why were they asked to take the samples as
14 opposed to the person in the chemistry lab, or are
15 they in the chemistry lab?
16 A. They are part of the chemistry lab.
17 Q. In order to obtain the position that you
18 have obtained, what type of training did you go
19 through to train you to do the inspections that you do
20 as part of your normal course?
21 A. That's kind of a tough one. At the time it
22 was pretty much on-the-job training.
23 Q. Who were you trained by?
24 A. Well, realistically nobody. That sounds
25 kind of stupid, but I rode with a field repetitive
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1 that had been there for a while. I rode in his area
2 and he taught me, he showed me some things.
3 Q. Who was that?
4 A. That was Hal Herbst.
5 Q. How do you spell the last name?
6 A. H E R B S T.
7 Q. Is he still with the District?
8 A. I believe he's in Right-of-Way.
9 Q. Is it Mr. Herbst who trained you in how to
10 use the machine that you use to take water quality
11 samples?
12 A. The nephlometer, yes.
13 Q. How long have you been working with Mr.
14 Botka?
15 A. Working with or under?
16 Q. Are you working with Mr. Botka or working
17 under him?
18 A. I worked with Mr. Botka since December of
19 1985. He's been my supervisor since, I guess the end
20 of January of this year.
21 Q. What was his position before January of
22 this year?
23 A. He was an enforcement field representative.
24 Q. Would you say that it is your division that
25 has primary responsibility for conducting on-site
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1 inspections?
2 A. For surface water, yes.
3 Q. Are there any other individuals in your
4 division other than yourself and Mr. Botka who conduct
5 on-site inspections?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who are those individuals?
8 A. It's almost the whole division.
9 Q. The whole division is involved in doing
10 inspections?
11 A. From one time to another, yes.
12 Q. Are they divided up in some way, whether
13 geographically or type of permit?
14 A. Geographically.
15 Q. Are there any other individuals in your
16 division who do inspections in the EAA area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Which individuals are those?
19 A. Bobby Pearce, E A R C E.
20 Q. Anyone else?
21 A. Possibly Steve Lumpkins.
22 Q. Do you know if they are involved in taking
23 water quality samples from EAA?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you know when the District started
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1 requiring Surface Water Management permits in the EAA?
2 A. Exact date, no.
3 Q. Approximate date?
4 A. I think somewhere around 1973 is when we
5 got into permitting.
6 Q. Do you know if there were any permits
7 issued in 1973 or in that approximate time frame for
8 projects in the EAA?
9 A. I wouldn't know.
10 Q. Do you know if when you started working for
11 the District, there were any permits issued for
12 projects in the EAA?
13 A. Not in my area, as far as I know.
14 Q. As far as you know, when is the first
15 instance that you can recall that Surface Water
16 Management permits were issued for projects in the
17 EAA?
18 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
19 A. As far as I know, almost all those farms
20 have been existing farm operations for years and years
21 and they are more or less grandfathered in.
22 Q. When you say they are grandfathered in,
23 does that mean that they do not have permits?
24 A. No. Honestly, I don't know exactly how
25 that works, but I know probably nine out of ten of
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1 them have been existing for years and years.
2 Q. And do they have permits?
3 A. As far as I know.
4 MS. LAFUENTE: You don't need to speculate
5 if you don't know.
6 Q. Have you ever done an on-site inspection
7 for any of the farms in the EAA?
8 A. Less than a handful.
9 Q. Do you recall any of the circumstances or
10 reasons that you were asked to do inspections in the
11 EAA?
12 A. One was just a simple dike inspection.
13 The engineer had sent a dike report inspection in, so
14 I just was sent out to check on it.
15 Q. Do you recall any of the other
16 circumstances?
17 A. Could you clarify or restate?
18 Q. Any of the other reasons that you may have
19 gone out to the EAA to do inspections.
20 A. We got one of those special inspection
21 requests a couple months ago.
22 Q. What was the nature of that request?
23 A. S.N. Knight was complaining, sent a letter
24 to the executive office complaining that some of the
25 farm fields were getting flooded through or by the
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1 Compartment D in Loxahatchee Natural Wildlife Refuge.
2 Q. Did you go out and do an inspection?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you find was occurring?
5 A. We found a couple things. I don't know if
6 we found anything absolutely conclusive on the problem
7 on the complaint.
8 Q. What did you find?
9 A. Could you clarify that?
10 Q. When you went out and did your inspection,
11 what did you see, what did you observe?
12 A. We didn't observe anything unusual.
13 Everything that we saw that had been there had been in
14 existence for years.
15 Q. Did you determine that there was any
16 validity to the complaint?
17 A. Possibly.
18 Q. Do you recall if the refuge was given any
19 specific instructions as a result of your inspection?
20 Let me show you something and see if this may assist
21 you.
22 I show you a letter dated November 16, 1990
23 addressed to Burkett Neely.
24 (Pause)
25 Q. I ask you if you have ever seen this letter
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1 before.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you familiar with the contents of that
4 letter?
5 A. More or less.
6 Q. Does this letter help you to answer the
7 question I asked you previously as to basically what
8 you determined on your inspection?
9 A. It's not that simple an answer for me to
10 give the way you state it. It would be a long, long
11 answer. I'd have to start at the beginning.
12 Q. Go ahead and start at the beginning.
13 A. Like I said, we got a complaint from S.N.
14 Knight. We were requested to investigate.
15 Myself, Eric Botka, Rodney Milton, he's
16 with the field station, Burkett Neely and I guess this
17 guy Alan Flock, we met to discuss Compartment D, what
18 their opinions were, what has or hasn't been going on
19 there.
20 Apparently in 1987 more or less a
21 modification was given to the refuge to replace a
22 couple risers with some flapgates and the Federal
23 government never had the money so they never did it.
24 And Mr. Knight apparently was, he felt that water was
25 backflowing through these risers and then somehow this
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1 is connected with some of his farmland, he was
2 thinking some of this extra water was flooding his
3 field.
4 We found the risers are there, there is no
5 flapgate yet, modification has not occurred, and there
6 was a lot of seepage coming under the L 7 levy. So it
7 was more than just one simple, clear-cut -- and
8 apparently there was some work going on at S 6 that
9 had the Hillsboro Canal a little higher too so that
10 might have caused some water to go back through.
11 MS. LAFUENTE: Can I interrupt for a
12 moment, are we going to put this into the record?
13 MS. DONLAN: Yes, I am going to mark that
14 as Exhibit No. 2.
15 (Deposition Exhibit RR 2 was marked for
16 identification)
17 Q. Was the refuge instructed to do something
18 or not to do something?
19 A. Looks like what they were instructed to do
20 was in this letter here. I don't know all the
21 details.
22 I was part of the inspection team that made
23 the inspection. As far as writing the reports and
24 following memos and letters from our division for Tom
25 MacVicar, whatever, I had no part in that, any part of
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1 the decision-making process.
2 Q. Did you make any sort of recommendations as
3 a result of the inspection?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If there was a complaint about effluent
6 being discharged on adjacent land, who would be
7 responsible for going out and doing that inspection?
8 A. Almost all the time, Field Engineering.
9 Q. Is that something that you might be asked
10 to go out and do an inspection on?
11 A. Yes.
12 What exactly do you mean by effluent,
13 though?
14 Q. Just in general terms, nothing
15 specifically. Is there a difference?
16 A. Yes, if there was turbidity, I would. If
17 there was something to do with water quality such as
18 nitrogen, phosphorus, I wouldn't do that.
19 Q. Would that be something that the
20 Environmental or Water Quality would do?
21 A. Either Water Quality or Water Chemistry;
22 I'm not sure which, though.
23 Q. When you say Water Chemistry --
24 A. Part of the DRE, Research and Evaluation.
25 Q. Who is in charge of the Water Chemistry
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1 Section or Division?
2 A. I can't recall at this time.
3 Q. Would the Water Chemistry Group be
4 concerned at all with water quality issues?
5 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
6 A. Could you clarify that or expound?
7 Q. Would the Water Chemistry Group have any
8 responsibilities for taking any sort of water quality
9 samples?
10 A. I don't know what kind of setup they do or
11 they have down there, to tell you the truth.
12 Q. Do you know if the farmers in the EAA are
13 required to turn in any sort of water quality data to
14 the District on a regular basis?
15 A. I don't know for sure.
16 Q. Who would know that?
17 A. Steve Anderson.
18 Q. Do you know if the Surface Water Management
19 permits ever require as one of their conditions that
20 there be some sort of water quality monitoring program
21 established?
22 A. Yes. I answered that yes before.
23 Q. Under what circumstances would that be made
24 a condition for a permit?
25 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
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1 A. It depends what kind of permit it is.
2 Q. If it was a Surface Water Management
3 permit.
4 A. It depends if it's a commercial site,
5 industrial site, a farm site.
6 Q. If it was a farm site, under what
7 conditions would that be a requirement?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Is that something again that Mr. Anderson
10 would have more knowledge?
11 A. Yes, it's not my area.
12 Q. Do you know how it is determined that in
13 fact a project should be permitted?
14 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
15 A. Could you clarify or expound on that?
16 Q. Do you know how it is determined that a
17 particular project under the laws of the State of
18 Florida should be permitted?
19 A. There's different rules and regulations
20 that each county, basin, different geographic area of
21 the District has.
22 Q. Are you also concerned with determining if
23 a particular project is in violation of specific
24 conditions of its permit?
25 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What do you do to determine that in fact a
3 project is in violation of its permit? How do you go
4 about determining that a project is in violation?
5 A. By reading the staff report or the special
6 conditions.
7 Q. Are you ever given any sort of guidance or
8 directive in how to interpret the staff report or the
9 special conditions?
10 A. Sometimes. Most of them are clear-cut, but
11 I guess sometimes.
12 Q. If you were to have a question, who would
13 you go to?
14 A. Generally I go to Eric first.
15 Q. Is there anyone else you might consult
16 with?
17 A. Depending, if it was environmental, I would
18 go to the environmentalists. If it was water quality,
19 you go to the Water Quality people.
20 Q. Have you ever consulted with anyone in the
21 Environmental Group over any question you may have had
22 concerning an interpretation of a special condition on
23 a permit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who have you consulted with?
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
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1 A. Debbie Goss, I believe Anita Carey. Those
2 are the main people I deal with, possibly one or two
3 other people at other times, but those are the main
4 people I've dealt with.
5 Q. Have you ever consulted with anyone in the
6 Water Quality Group?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who at that group?
9 A. I've talked to Steve Anderson or Eduardo
10 Lopez.
11 Q. Do you know who makes the decision as to
12 what conditions are included in each permit?
13 A. It's made by the reviewers and their
14 supervisors for each section.
15 Q. Do you have any input at all in this
16 decision as to what conditions are included on a
17 permit?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Other than the one instance that we have
20 mentioned with the Loxahatchee Natural Wildlife
21 Refuge, do you know of any other instance where there
22 was a water quality violation?
23 A. Would you repeat that?
24 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form.
25 (Question read)
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
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1 A. No, first of all, this other instance
2 wasn't a violation as far as I know, it was never
3 called a violation. And no to the main question.
4 Q. When you say a violation, what is your
5 definition of a violation?
6 A. This one looks more like a deficiency. It
7 just hasn't been done. I've never seen anything that
8 actually said that this was a violation. And I myself
9 don't make the definitive answer whether it is a
10 violation or enforcement.
11 Q. What is the difference between a deficiency
12 and a violation?
13 A. Deficiency is a deviation from the special
14 conditions or nonexistent. They didn't do it or they
15 didn't do it right.
16 Q. What is a violation?
17 A. Again, like I said, trashing wetlands,
18 digging ditches or moving earth without a permit.
19 Q. But isn't that also a deviation from a
20 condition?
21 A. Not if it's got a permit, it might not be.
22 Q. Meaning it might not be included as a
23 condition in the permit? I'm just trying to
24 understand what the difference is between the two.
25 You are saying that there is a deficiency and then
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 there is a violation. I am trying to understand the
2 difference.
3 A. Almost all the time violations and
4 enforcements occur on property that does not have a
5 permit. That's not set in stone but most of the time.
6 Q. What actions can the District take to
7 enforce permit requirements?
8 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
9 A. A lot of different things.
10 Q. Can you give me some examples?
11 A. Legal is one.
12 Q. By legal, do you mean bringing some sort of
13 a litigation, lawsuit?
14 A. Possible.
15 Q. What other options can you think of?
16 A. Withholding modification of the permit if
17 they are in for a modification.
18 Q. Are you aware of any particular actions
19 that the District has taken to enforce permit
20 requirements?
21 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
22 A. Mainly in the deficiency area.
23 Q. Can you give me some examples?
24 A. Specific examples or just general?
25 Q. Just general.
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130
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1 A. Generally if there's a deficiency, you try
2 to work it out in a friendly, amicable manner, to
3 communicate and try to do it the easy way, basically.
4 The hard way would be going through legal.
5 Q. Can you recall any of the specific
6 directions given to permit holders in order to bring
7 them into compliance with the permits?
8 A. Could you repeat that again or clarify a
9 little bit.
10 MS. DONLAN: Try reading it back.
11 (Question read)
12 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
13 A. Normally we contact the owner or the
14 engineer of record and explain the problem and most of
15 the time they work with us and we get it fixed.
16 Q. Do you recall any instances where the
17 District has instructed the permit holders not to
18 discharge water?
19 A. Could you clarify discharging water a
20 little more?
21 Q. Can you think of any instances where the
22 District has basically told the project holder not to
23 release any water on to adjacent land or into canals
24 or on to any adjacent property?
25 A. Lots of times during the construction
JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 phase.
2 Q. You say during the construction phase. Why
3 then particularly?
4 A. Because most of the time it's turbid water.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the lawsuit against
6 the Lakes Company?
7 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection.
8 A. It depends on what you mean by familiar.
9 Yes, I know about it; details, no, I don't know
10 anything about it.
11 Q. Do you know at all what the outcome of that
12 was?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know if the District has ever
15 limited the amount of water that the EAA farmers take
16 out of the canals?
17 A. Well, in the Water Use permit that they
18 have, they are allocated a certain amount every year.
19 That's what they are supposed to go by.
20 Q. Let me show you a document which I don't
21 believe is dated. This appears to be from Susan
22 Coughanour. It is a memo and attached to that are
23 some papers.
24 (Pause)
25 Q. I ask you if you have ever seen that
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