102
1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
2
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )
3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )
WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )
4 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038
5 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
6 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )
8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
9 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039
10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
11 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
13 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
14 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
15 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
16 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
of Florida; et al., )
17 Respondents. )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
18 100 Southeast 2nd Street
Miami, Florida
19 March 16, 1994
9:10 a.m. - 6:20 p.m.
20
CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS
21 VOLUME II
22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered
23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of
25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.
103
1 APPEARANCES
2
3 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and
4 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.
5
EARL BLANK KAVANAUGH & STOTTS , P.A.
6 One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636
Two South Biscayne Boulevard
7 Miami, Florida 33131
BY: MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQ.
8
9
ON BEHALF OF THE REPSONDENT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
10 MANAGEMENT DISTRICT
11
POPHAM HAIK SCHNOBRICH KAUFMAN
12 International Place - 40th Floor
100 Southeast 2nd Street
13 Miami, Florida 33131
BY: PAUL L. NETTLETON, ESQ.
14
15
ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR
16 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
17
KATHY A. STARK, ESQ.
18 Assistant United States Attorneys
99 Northeast 4th Street
19 Third Floor
Miami, Florida 33132
20
21 PRESENT:
22 THOMAS ARMENTANO
23
24
25
104
1 INDEX
2
3 Witness Direct
4 WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS
5 By Mr. Nettleton: 105
6
7 EXHIBITS
8
9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
10 3 Map entitled 1993 Extent of 197
11 Cattails in Everglades
12 Conservation Areas
13
14 4 Rutchey September 1992 Report 232
15
16 5 Jensen et al. Report 232
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
105
1 WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS, resumed.
2 THE COURT REPORTER: Dr. Dennis, I remind
3 you you are still under oath.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
6 BY MR. NETTLETON:
7 Q. Dr. Dennis, when we left off yesterday we
8 were talking about some of the Duke wetlands studies
9 that were going on and your knowledge concerning
10 those. I would just like to pick up there with some
11 of the matters we had not yet discussed.
12 You had also mentioned a fractionation of
13 phosphorus study that Duke was involved in. Do you
14 recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is your understanding of that study?
17 A. It is my understanding that basically the
18 addressed the various forms of phosphorus, how they
19 occurred, where they they occurred, the relationships
20 between them in the sediment.
21 Q. Do you know if that study is completed at
22 this date?
23 A. I believe it is, but I am not absolutely
24 certain.
25 Q. Do you know where that research project
106
1 was being conducted?
2 A. No, I don't recall.
3 Q. Was that a field study?
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, to the extent
5 you would like to show him some of the Duke reports
6 he has turned over in his document production, you
7 can refresh his recollection. Also I know you are
8 deposing Curtis in about a week and a half. Perhaps
9 it would speed up Mike's deposition by reserving
10 Curtis questions for Curtis Richardson.
11 MR. NETTLETON: Thank you.
12 BY MR. NETTLETON:
13 Q. You can still answer.
14 A. I really don't recall the details of the
15 study more than that. I believe it was reported on
16 in one of the annual reports.
17 Q. What is your understanding of the results
18 of the macroinvertebrate study that was conducted by
19 Duke?
20 A. That they found populations of
21 macroinvertebrates in areas identified as
22 nutrient-impacted areas.
23 Basically this was work done principally I
24 believe by Russ Rader, and he sampled
25 macroinvertebrates in areas that are termed impacted
107
1 and found and reported on the types, numbers and
2 densities of macroinvertebrates in that area.
3 Q. Do you recall what results or conclusions
4 they reached as a result of that study?
5 A. I believe the general conclusions were
6 that they found a good number of different species,
7 and in good quantities.
8 Q. Where?
9 A. In the nutrient -- areas that are termed
10 impacted or the nutrient-impacted areas as they are
11 referred to.
12 Q. Do you know if they looked in any, as to
13 the macroinvertebrate communities in
14 non-nutrient-impacted areas?
15 A. I believe they did. Again, I haven't
16 reviewed these reports in detail in some time. I
17 could give you a better account of my understanding
18 of them if I could see a copy of it to refresh myself
19 on it.
20 Q. What is your understanding of the results
21 of the gradient study that was done by Duke wetlands?
22 A. As I recall, this was related to transect
23 in the northern part of 2A in which they generally
24 found a gradient of soil phosphorus concentrations
25 which were higher near the Hillsborough Canal and the
108
1 10 structures and became less going south from those
2 structures.
3 Q. What is your understanding of the distance
4 the gradient continues to move south?
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of
6 the question.
7 MR. NETTLETON: I will rephrase it.
8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Thanks.
9 BY MR. NETTLETON:
10 Q. What is your understanding of the distance
11 south of the S-10s that the nutrient gradient
12 continues to exist from high to low before it levels
13 off?
14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Is this in reference to
15 Curtis Richardson's transect or just generally?
16 MR. NETTLETON: His understanding of the
17 system.
18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Generally.
19 A. Again I believe that those numbers are
20 clearly presented in his papers and annual reports.
21 And I don't recall the exact distances.
22 Q. Again, with the understanding that you are
23 not looking at the report right now, and again, I am
24 not necessarily referring only to Curt Richardson's
25 report at this stage, do you have an understanding of
109
1 approximately the distance south of the S-10s that
2 the nutrient gradient exists within the soils?
3 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will object to the form
4 of the question, just to the extent that you are
5 talking about three structures and you are giving
6 south as the exact direction.
7 Q. You can still answer.
8 (Pause)
9 A. As I recall, there is irregular area south
10 of the 10 structures so that the distances vary. And
11 if I had any of those documents here I could give you
12 a good answer on that.
13 As I sit here and try and recall those, it
14 is in the order of magnitude of five, six, seven
15 miles, I believe. It may be a little less, it may be
16 a little bit more.
17 I am not trying to not give you an answer,
18 I just don't carry those numbers around in my head
19 all the time.
20 Q. Yesterday you told us about a number of
21 tasks that were assigned to you by your client. The
22 first one was to investigate the cattail occurrence
23 and spread in the area 1 and 2A around the S-10s, is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
110
1 Q. And then the second thing you mentioned
2 was working with your clients in addressing the
3 concerns that had been raised in the press about the
4 rapid spread of cattails throughout the Everglades.
5 Would I be correct in assuming that those
6 two tasks somewhat merged together in your work?
7 A. They were interrelated, yes.
8 Q. Given that the first one is what you
9 mentioned you were first asked to investigate, can
10 you tell me chronologically to the extent you can
11 keep things chronologically straight over the years
12 as they have occurred, what exactly you and BDA did
13 to address this task of investigating the occurrence
14 and spread of cattail in the Everglades Protection
15 Area?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 As I recall, I was first asked to look at
18 and become familiar with a helicopter survey that had
19 been conducted by Paul Larsen with several botanists
20 that had been conducted in the northern part of 2A
21 south of the 10 structures.
22 So I inspected by helicopter that area
23 south of the 10 structures to become familiar with
24 what had been done in that study and the extent of
25 the cattails south of the 10 structures.
111
1 I next was asked to investigate the
2 occurrence and distribution of cattail immediately
3 north of the 10 structures in the southern part of
4 Water Conservation Area 1.
5 So I served as one of the botanists on
6 that investigation.
7 For clarification, are you asking me to
8 chronology all of the events, that was in 1989 to
9 early '90, are you asking me to chronology the events
10 since then?
11 Q. I will keep prompting you as we move
12 through this.
13 I think it would be easier, I will come
14 back and ask you a couple of more questions about
15 these but I would like to kind of take us through to
16 where we get to today.
17 If you can tell me after you did this
18 investigation north of the S-10s, what was the next
19 activity that you undertook to address these tasks?
20 A. We at some point investigated the area
21 again south of the 10 structures in the northern part
22 of 2A to determine cattail extent.
23 Q. Was that again by helicopter?
24 A. The investigation was primarily by
25 helicopter with some selective ground truthing.
112
1 In that general time period we were also
2 asked to provide assistance in ground truthing and
3 reviewing training stations for a remote sensing
4 analysis that was being performed.
5 Q. When you say that time period, what time
6 period are we into at this stage?
7 A. 1990.
8 Q. Who was performing the remote sensing
9 analysis?
10 A. A group called ERIM, E R I M.
11 Q. What does ERIM stand for?
12 A. I don't recall. It is a group out of
13 Michigan, I believe, that performs, among other
14 things, remote sensing type studies.
15 Q. Do you recall the principal investigator
16 for ERIM?
17 A. I don't recall the name of the designated
18 principal investigator on the study.
19 Q. Do you recall the name of any of the
20 investigators from ERIM?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What are those names?
23 A. The person that I coordinated with was one
24 of their team that worked on the study, Jackie Ott.
25 Q. Anybody else you recall?
113
1 A. That was my primary source of contact. I
2 met some of the other ERIM people but I don't recall
3 their names.
4 Q. Was ERIM under contract with the League or
5 with their attorneys, to your knowledge?
6 A. I believe that's the case.
7 Q. This is in the 1990 time period. What was
8 the next activity you undertook to address the task
9 of investigating the occurrence and spread of cattail
10 in the EPA?
11 A. The next activity of, I guess, some focus
12 was an effort that began probably late 1990, extended
13 through 1991, essentially, in which we attempted to
14 map the distribution of cattail throughout the Water
15 Conservation Areas.
16 Q. When you say we, who are you referring to?
17 A. Myself and other scientists at Breedlove,
18 Dennis & Associates.
19 Q. Other than scientists at BDA, were there
20 any other persons involved in this activity?
21 A. Not directly.
22 Q. What about indirectly?
23 A. During that time period if other
24 scientists had, based on work that they may have been
25 doing or experience in the Water Conservation Areas,
114
1 found or heard of location of cattail, they would
2 report that to us.
3 So during that time we were attempting to
4 gather what information we could on where cattail
5 actually occurred. That --
6 Q. What -- excuse me. Go ahead.
7 A. I --
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Why don't you pose a
10 question.
11 MR. NETTLETON: I was planning to.
12 BY MR. NETTLETON:
13 Q. Following this activity, what was the next
14 activity that you or others at BDA undertook to
15 address the task of the cattail occurrence in the
16 EPA?
17 A. The next primary task in that regard was
18 mapping of the extent cattail that we conducted in
19 1993.
20 Q. When you say conducted, you mean the
21 actual physical mapping that you did was in 1993?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Was this mapping based upon your
24 activities in late 1990 through 1991, the ground
25 truthing that you referred to?
115
1 A. We built on the information and knowledge
2 that we acquired in the development of the cattail
3 mapping in the '90-'91 and early '92 time frame.
4 Q. When you say in 1993 you were mapping the
5 extent of the cattail, are you referring to
6 physically putting the pen on the paper and drawing a
7 map, is that what you are referring to by mapping?
8 A. That was included, yes.
9 Q. Were you also doing site investigation
10 during 1993?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, I think we are
13 operating on a little misconception. Just so you are
14 aware of it,a map similar to that for 1991 was
15 produced a year ago for his deposition, the 1991
16 cattail map, same size, et cetera. Just so --
17 MR. NETTLETON: Do you have that?
18 MS. STARK: I have never seen it
19 MR. NETTLETON: I don't have it.
20 MR. KOBELINSKI: It was Bates numbered and
21 it was produced.
22 MR. NETTLETON: Do you have a copy back at
23 your office you could bring to us tomorrow?
24 Seriously, Mark, I don't have it.
25 MR. KOBELINSKI: That one I know was
116
1 produced. I was there physically when it was
2 produced, when the Dennis documents were produced. I
3 will see if he can we can get another one.
4 MR. NETTLETON: To whom was it produced?
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I believe it was Alberto
6 who got over for the Dennis documents.
7 MS. STARK: We got transect maps.
8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Something that looks a
9 lot like that. But as I said, I was the one who was
10 physically there.
11 MR. NETTLETON: I appreciate your
12 clarification.
13 BY MR. NETTLETON:
14 Q. Am I correct, Dr. Dennis, that the
15 activity you described previously from late 1990
16 through '91 involved the actual construction of a
17 vegetative map for that general time period?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And then the activity that you just
20 described of mapping the cattails that was conducted
21 in 1993, that was a subsequent map that was
22 developed?
23 A. Yes, sir. There were two maps.
24 Q. Since the activity that you conducted in
25 1993 of mapping the extent of cattail, have you
117
1 undertaken any additional work to address the
2 specific task of investigating the occurrence of
3 cattail in the EPA?
4 A. We have not conducted any field,
5 additional field studies or produced any cattail
6 distribution maps since the 1993 map.
7 Q. Other than conducting field studies or
8 additional mapping, have you undertaken any activity
9 in order to confirm or in any other way address the
10 task of investigating the occurrence of cattail in
11 the EPA?
12 A. The only other thing that we had done
13 specifically in that regard, as I recall, since the
14 production of the '93 cattail map is review of other
15 cattail maps that have been produced or other
16 vegetation maps that have been produced.
17 Q. What other vegetation maps have you
18 reviewed?
19 A. I recall seeing and reviewing the, I
20 believe it was the 1991 time frame, satellite map
21 produced by the Water Management District.
22 Q. That would be by Ken Rutchey, et al.?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Any other vegetation maps that you
25 reviewed?
118
1 A. There was recently a series of satellite
2 maps produced by Dr. Jensen that I have seen.
3 Q. Any other vegetation maps that you have
4 seen?
5 A. I believe those are the only recent ones
6 in the last six months or so that I have reviewed.
7 Q. The work that you did in late '90 through
8 '91, that mapping effort, what date do you put on
9 that map? Is that a 1991 map, just so we can discuss
10 it?
11 A. For nomenclatural purposes I believe we
12 refer to that as the 1991 cattail map.
13 Q. For purposes of developing the 1991 map
14 did you review any other vegetation maps?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which maps did you review in that effort?
17 A. We reviewed the vegetation map that was
18 produced by the co-op unit at the University of
19 Florida. I think that is referred to as Work Order
20 32.
21 We also reviewed the cattail maps that
22 were produced in the Larsen reports.
23 And as a matter of general information we
24 reviewed certain historical vegetation maps and
25 accounts of the Everglades.
119
1 Q. Do you recall what historical maps and
2 accounts you reviewed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell me what they are?
5 A. We reviewed the John Henry Davis 1943
6 vegetation map which describes the overall vegetation
7 of the South Florida area.
8 There were some specific maps of other
9 areas of the Everglades contained in Work Order 32
10 and also some of the various reports concerning the
11 Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge or WCA-1. There was a
12 map in the fifties, another one in the sixties.
13 Q. These are in reports relating to the
14 Loxahatchee?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Any other historical maps or accounts that
17 you recall reviewing?
18 A. I believe there was a map and certainly
19 there were accounts of vegetation by Loviss.
20 There was data that existed concerning
21 vegetation in Everglades National Park but, but I'm
22 not sure that I ever saw that data in a form and
23 fashion for a length of time to really review it
24 sufficiently.
25 There are probably others, but those are
120
1 certainly the primary ones that I can recall right
2 now.
3 Q. Other than the ones you just mentioned,
4 did you review any vegetation maps during your
5 activity of developing the 1993 map?
6 A. I believe the list I have given you
7 includes the primary maps and information that was
8 used for both of those.
9 Q. The first thing you mentioned was a
10 helicopter survey done by Paul Larsen and some
11 botanists in the northern area of 2A.
12 Who does Paul Larsen work for?
13 A. I believe he works for himself.
14 Q. Was his survey being done pursuant to
15 contract with the League or their attorneys, to your
16 knowledge?
17 A. I assume so, but I have no direct
18 knowledge of his contractual relationships.
19 Q. Who were the other botanists other than
20 Paul Larsen who were involved in that survey to your
21 knowledge?
22 A. I believe those names are reported in his
23 '89 report, and I don't recall their names.
24 I believe one of them was from Dames &
25 Moore and the other from ESP.
121
1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, that was covered
2 in detail in Paul Larsen's deposition a couple of
3 weeks ago.
4 MR. NETTLETON: I wasn't there.
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I recognize that.
6 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record a second.
7 (Discussion off the record)
8 BY MR. NETTLETON:
9 Q. In becoming familiar with the survey
10 conducted by Paul Larsen, did you have any direct
11 discussions with Paul Larsen about that survey?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you give me a rough estimate of how
14 many times you have spoken with Paul Larsen
15 concerning that survey?
16 A. Over what time frame?
17 Q. You aren't going to say it was only one or
18 two times, it sounds like from 1989 forward.
19 A. I don't know how many times.
20 Q. Can you tell me what the substance of your
21 discussions with Paul Larsen was about as they
22 related to that particular survey?
23 A. Yes. Generally, as I recall, I first
24 discussed with Paul Larsen the methodology that was
25 used in conducting that survey, what he did, where he
122
1 did it, the conditions under which it was conducted.
2 And he provided, or it was provided to me
3 through counsel, I don't recall which, the maps that
4 showed the extent of cattail, and then also the
5 report that detailed the methodology and the results.
6 Over the next five years we may have had
7 discussions relative to the results of that survey in
8 general discussions about the cattail distribution
9 and occurrence.
10 I believe we also discussed generally that
11 survey when we were preparing to conduct the
12 additional helicopter surveys with Paul Larsen.
13 That's the general nature of the
14 conversations concerning that.
15 Q. What was the time period of Paul Larsen's
16 survey as reflected in the 1989 report?
17 A. I believe that he conducted his first
18 helicopter survey in the summer of 1989, and then the
19 subsequent surveys were conducted, I don't recall
20 whether it was late '89, 1990, that time frame.
21 Q. Are the results of all of his surveys set
22 forth in the '89 report that you referred to?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did he issue subsequent reports concerning
25 his later surveys?
123
1 A. I am sorry, I didn't hear the question.
2 Q. Did he issue subsequent reports reflecting
3 his later surveys?
4 A. Yes. I believe all those reports that I
5 had were turned over to you.
6 Q. In your discussions with Paul Larsen
7 concerning his methodologies of what he did, where he
8 did it and the conditions under which it was done,
9 were those discussions prompted by a concern on your
10 part about that methodology?
11 A. No. They were prompted by an interest and
12 need to know what was done and how it was done.
13 Q. Why was there a need to know that on your
14 part?
15 A. One of the most immediate needs was that
16 we were about to use a similar methodology to look at
17 the amount of and distribution of cattail in the
18 southern part of WCA-1.
19 Q. You stated in the 1989 to 1990 period that
20 you inspected by helicopter the area south of the
21 S-10s to become familiar with what was done in the
22 Larsen study and in that area, what was in that area.
23 Did Paul Larsen accompany you on those
24 helicopter surveys?
25 A. Yes, he did.
124
1 Q. Can you describe the general purpose of or
2 the specific purpose of the helicopter overflights
3 that were undertaken again at this first step when
4 you were investigating the areas south of the S-10s?
5 Was it simply a familiarization or were you actually
6 collecting data at that time?
7 A. As I recall, we conducted reconnaisance
8 investigations to become familiar with the area
9 before we began actually recording, collecting any
10 quantifiable data.
11 Q. Do you recall generally the approximate
12 geographic area that you covered in that initial or
13 initial helicopter overflights?
14 A. As I recall, it was generally the area of
15 Water Conservation Area 2. We may have flown over
16 other parts of the conservation areas going or coming
17 to that, but as I recall, our initial primary focus
18 was WCA-2A.
19 Q. And did your reconnaissance cover the
20 entire area of 2A?
21 A. It was a general reconnaissance of 2A.
22 Q. During that general reconnaissance did you
23 obtain an understanding of the extent of the cattail
24 occurrence in area 2A south of the S-10 structures?
25 A. Generally, yes.
125
1 Q. What understanding did you receive as far
2 as the geographic extent of the cattail coverage
3 south of the S-10 structures?
4 A. Generally that the largest area of rather
5 dense cattail occurred in the northern part of 3A
6 generally south of the 10 structures.
7 Q. You said 3A, did you mean 2A?
8 A. I am sorry, thank you, 2A.
9 Q. Do you recall approximately how many acres
10 or hectares were covered with cattail or mixed
11 communities of cattail and sawgrass south of the
12 S-10s at that time?
13 A. I was not able to determine that from the
14 reconnaissance.
15 Q. Do you recall how many miles or kilometers
16 south of the S-10s the cattail existed?
17 A. It was generally in the northern -- in
18 thinking about a map of 2A, the denser cattail was
19 generally in the northern quarter, more or less, of
20 the whole conservation area. And then there was an
21 area of mixed cattail and sawgrass that same, perhaps
22 encompassing the top third, more or less.
23 Q. Other than in the northern area of
24 Conservation Area 2A, did you find any significant
25 cattail stands or mixed communities of cattail and
126
1 sawgrass in other areas of Water Conservation Area 2A
2 during this general reconnaissance flight or flights
3 that we are discussing?
4 A. There were some other areas that we found
5 cattail in. I don't know how you want me to define
6 significant.
7 Q. What other areas of 2A did you visually
8 observe cattail during this reconnaissance?
9 A. As I recall, there were perhaps some small
10 patches of cattail in close proximity to the levee
11 and canal that separates WCA-2A from 2B, and some
12 cattail along the levee that marks the western
13 boundary of WCA-2A.
14 Q. When you say small patches of cattail near
15 the levee and canal between 2A and 2B, can you give
16 me some rough estimation of the acreage that was
17 involved, if it was to that extent?
18 A. I can't from that reconnaissance flight.
19 There were just some small patches of, or bands
20 associated with or in close approximity to those
21 canals or levees.
22 Q. Were they directly adjacent to the levees?
23 A. Some of them were.
24 Q. How far generally north of the levees did
25 you observe cattails during this reconnaissance?
127
1 A. As I recall on that reconnaissance, which
2 was just that, a reconnaissance flight, the
3 impression I had was that they were in pretty close
4 proximity to the canals or the levees at the southern
5 and western part.
6 Q. Pretty close proximity, would that be less
7 than a kilometer?
8 A. Generally, yes.
9 Q. How many reconnaissance flights, was there
10 more than one that were taken in this particular time
11 period when you were familiarizing yourself with the
12 area?
13 A. In that initial time period, as I recall,
14 there was more than one, and I would say there were
15 several. Several would be one to three, somewhere in
16 that neighborhood.
17 Q. Generally were they over a short time span
18 that you took these reconnaissance flights?
19 (Pause)
20 Q. Let me rephrase that. Do you recall what
21 the time frame was over which these one or several
22 flights occurred?
23 A. The initial reconnaissance flights were
24 over a period of one to a few months.
25 Q. Do you recall what time of year it was?
128
1 A. Fall 1989, and then moving forward from
2 there.
3 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what the
4 water levels were in the southern area of 2A where
5 you observed the cattails in these reconnaissance
6 flights in 1989, the fall of 1989?
7 MR. KOBELINSKI: During the time period he
8 actually took the flights?
9 MR. NETTLETON: Right.
10 A. To the extent that I made any notes of
11 those, I probably noted water level impressions with
12 regard to conditions in those notes. As I recall,
13 the water levels fluctuated. And I have seen it when
14 there has been standing water throughout and then
15 times when it has been relatively dry. I
16 don't --
17 Q. I am referring specifically to the time
18 during your reconnaissance flights in the fall of
19 1989. Do you know what the water levels were at that
20 time?
21 A. I don't specifically know what they were.
22 Q. During these reconnaissance flights did
23 you ever touch down with the helicopter in any areas
24 of 2A?
25 A. I believe we did. Generally what we did
129
1 on those flights was fly over at various altitudes,
2 beginning higher to get an overall view and
3 perspective, and then as we saw something that we
4 wanted to look closer at we would fly down closer and
5 inspect it.
6 And we may have set down on those
7 reconnaissance flights.
8 I am having a hard time separating out in
9 my mind exactly what was done on each of the flights,
10 whether it was one of the reconnaissance flights or
11 one of the later survey flights.
12 But to try to be responsive and give you a
13 good idea on what we would do on those reconnaissance
14 flights, that's essentially what we would do.
15 Q. During this reconnaissance flight were you
16 actually collecting water level data at any location
17 or collecting data on vegetative communities?
18 A. No, no detailed data. We were only
19 becoming familiar with the area and the system. We
20 may have made note of vegetation or water condition.
21 Q. Who would have made those notes? Would
22 that have been you or someone else in the helicopter?
23 A. It could have been any of the people in
24 the helicopter. I often made notes on some but not
25 all of the helicopter surveys.
130
1 Q. I believe you indicated during
2 approximately this same time period of the fall of
3 1989 into 1990 that you began investigating the
4 occurrence and distribution of cattail north of the
5 S-10s in Area 1, is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. I believe you said you served as one of
8 the botanists on that investigation. Who were the
9 other botanists?
10 A. As I recall, Dr. Bill Grey of our office
11 assisted in that investigation.
12 Q. You said Bill Grey?
13 A. Bill Grey.
14 Q. Anybody else
15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you referring to
16 botanists?
17 MR. NETTLETON: Right now, yes.
18 MR. KOBELINSKI: That was your initial
19 question, that's why I am asking.
20 A. Dr. Grey and I were the ones who were
21 taking the or making the determination on the
22 botanical aspects of that survey.
23 Q. Who else other than yourself and Bill Grey
24 was involved in that inspection north of the S-10s in
25 the fall 1989-1990 time period?
131
1 A. Of course there was the helicopter pilot
2 and those were the only ones actively involved in the
3 investigation. And I believe those were the only
4 ones in the helicopter. There may have been someone
5 else that came along for familiarization since we had
6 helicopter time and we were out there.
7 But as I recall, certainly the principal
8 people conducting that survey were Paul Larsen, Dr.
9 Grey and myself.
10 Q. Am I correct that this flight over the
11 area north of the S-10s in Conservation Area 1 was
12 not simply a reconnaissance flight, that you were
13 actually doing some collecting of data?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. First of all, how many flights were there
16 over the area north of the S-10s during this time
17 period?
18 A. There was one investigation, I can't
19 remember whether we conducted it over one day or two
20 days. It was no more than two days and it may have
21 all been done in one day.
22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of
23 those one or two days?
24 A. I could refer to my field notes and get
25 the exact day or the Larsen report and get the exact
132
1 day.
2 It was either in the latter part of 1989
3 or the very first part of 1990.
4 Q. Can you describe the geographic area that
5 was covered in this one or two day investigation?
6 A. Generally it was the extreme southern end
7 of Water Conservation Area 1 and extending for a
8 distance approximately a third to a half north along
9 the eastern and western canals that formed the
10 boundary of WCA-1.
11 Q. When you say one third to one half, are
12 you referring to one third or one half of the
13 conservation area?
14 A. Of the eastern or western boundary of the
15 conservation area, yes, sir.
16 Q. Other than the boundaries, were you
17 looking at any of the interior sections of
18 Conservation Area 1?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How wide a berth, if you will, of the
21 boundaries were you looking at or investigating?
22 A. From the perimeter canal and levee several
23 miles.
24 Q. What data were you collecting during the
25 one or two day investigation?
133
1 A. We were collecting data on the occurrence
2 of cattail and other species associated with areas
3 where it was growing.
4 Q. Where cattail is growing?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. What other data were you collecting?
7 A. Data on their location.
8 Q. Any other data that was collected?
9 A. Location, species, estimate of percent
10 cover and a verification of or calibration of the
11 Loran unit that was in the helicopter.
12 Q. Was there any water level data collected
13 during this investigation?
14 A. No specific water level data, no, sir.
15 Q. Was there any water quality data collected
16 during this investigation?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Am I correct you were utilizing a Loran to
19 determine location?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. What were you doing to calibrate the
22 Loran?
23 A. Paul Larsen actually calibrated the Loran
24 and took the measurements on location.
25 Q. How were you identifying species?
134
1 A. Visually.
2 Q. Were these visual identifications done
3 from the helicopter?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Was there any touchdowns within Area 1
6 during this one or two day investigation?
7 A. No. As I recall, the only touchdown, and
8 I don't recall whether we specifically actually
9 touched down or hovered but it was on a fixed or a
10 known location in the bend of the levees that
11 separate Water Conservation Area 1 and 2, that Paul
12 Larsen knew the location of and used that to
13 calibrate the Loran.
14 Q. What height were you flying at while you
15 were making the visual identifications of the
16 species?
17 A. I was in the back seat looking out the
18 side of the helicopter so I couldn't see the
19 altimeter. I don't know exactly what height we were
20 flying at.
21 We were flying at various altitudes. I
22 mean, the helicopter was going up and down.
23 Q. Do you recall approximately what range of
24 heights you were flying at when you were recording
25 your observations?
135
1 A. Generally it would have been several
2 hundred feet, several hundreds of feet.
3 Q. How were you recording the information or
4 data that you were collecting with regard to species
5 identification and/or percent cover?
6 A. We were flying a series of north-south
7 transect, aerial transect lines that began at the
8 levee between 1 and 2 and we would fly until we noted
9 a vegetation change. And at that point we would
10 hover and Paul Larsen would record the location on
11 the Loran reading of that vegetation change. And we
12 would estimate the percent cover of the species that
13 occurred in that zone. It was a visual estimate of
14 general percent cover.
15 Q. In the zone, are you referring to the zone
16 that you would have just flown over?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. How wide were these transects that you
19 were flying or visually observing?
20 A. The transect essentially consisted of the
21 area that we could immediately see east and west
22 outside of the helicopter. So we were looking down
23 at an approximately 45 degree angle or so and trying
24 to give an accurate characterization of the
25 vegetation within that band.
136
1 Q. Do you know the approximate width that
2 band would be?
3 A. This is just an estimate as I sit here,
4 but I would say it would be in the order of a
5 thousand feet plus or minus.
6 Q. You indicated you were flying north to
7 south transects. You said you began the transects at
8 the levee between 1 and 2. Would you be flying south
9 to north transects? Was that how it was being
10 conducted?
11 A. It was essentially south to north. I
12 don't recall whether we then flew over and flew north
13 to south. I think it was essentially south to north.
14 Q. Did you fly more than one transect on,
15 say, the eastern side of Area 2A -- I am sorry, Area
16 1, or was there only a single transect that you ran
17 along the perimeter?
18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, again, I will
19 object to the line only to the extent the report
20 literally has the Loran coordinates and transects
21 drawn on to the Water Conservation Area 1 figure
22 along with all the notes, et cetera.
23 If you just look at the report, it has
24 answers to all these questions. So I would either
25 just let him look at the report if you want to
137
1 refresh his recollection or just look at the report
2 itself for the answers.
3 MR. NETTLETON: This is in the Larsen
4 report?
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Yes.
6 BY MR. NETTLETON:
7 Q. How were you going about determining the
8 estimate of percent cover of a particular area?
9 A. Visually.
10 Q. When you say a percent cover, are you
11 referring to percent cover of a particular species or
12 percent cover of vegetation over the given area?
13 A. We were trying to characterize the general
14 percent cover of the species over the area.
15 Q. What species were you identifying?
16 A. As I mentioned, we were primarily
17 interested in determining the geographic extent and
18 density of cattail, so that was the primary focus.
19 And we were looking at cattail. As we saw other
20 species that were associated within that band or that
21 occurred within that band, we would record those.
22 Again, all of that is indicated in the
23 report. There would be sawgrass, pickerelweed,
24 Sagittaria.
25 Q. These other species were also recorded as
138
1 a percent of coverage for the area?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Was there any subsequent ground truthing
4 of any form to verify the percent coverage that you
5 estimated from your visual observations?
6 A. Not within WCA-1 that was associated with
7 that study.
8 Q. And the results of this particular
9 investigation are set forth in a report, is that
10 correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Are you one of the authors of that report?
13 A. I believe that Paul Larsen authored those
14 reports.
15 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of the
16 report for this particular investigation?
17 A. It would have either been late 1989 or
18 early 1990.
19 Q. What was your involvement if any in
20 preparing that report?
21 A. I assisted in the field determinations and
22 Paul Larsen prepared the report.
23 Q. Did you review any drafts of the report?
24 A. No.
25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could we take a five
139
1 minute mid-morning break?
2 MR. NETTLETON: Sure.
3 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
4 after which the following proceedings
5 were had)
6 BY MR. NETTLETON:
7 Q. The next activity that you mentioned to
8 perform the task of looking at the cattail occurrence
9 was investigating the northern area of 2A again to
10 determine cattail extent.
11 Can you tell me approximately when that
12 occurred?
13 A. I believe that would have been in the
14 early part of 1990.
15 Q. You said this was primarily by helicopter
16 with some selective ground truthing, is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So this particular investigation did
19 involve collection of data, is that correct, in Area
20 2A?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Approximately how many days were involved
23 in this investigation, field investigation?
24 A. As I recall, it was a one to two day
25 event.
140
1 Q. In proximity to your investigation in Area
2 1, proximity of time, how long after your
3 investigation of Area 1 was this, approximately,
4 again?
5 A. It was within the next half year after
6 that, as I recall.
7 Q. Who other than yourself was involved in
8 this investigation in Area 2A?
9 A. I believe Dr. Bill Grey again.
10 Q. Anybody else?
11 A. Paul Larsen.
12 Q. What data was collected during this
13 investigation of northern Area 2A?
14 A. Essentially the same data that we
15 described and just went over in the southern part of
16 1A -- I mean the southern part of 1.
17 Q. So on this investigation you collected
18 data on what species, estimate of percent cover and
19 data for calibration of the Loran?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. What type of flight patterns were used in
22 this particular investigation? Were transects flown
23 again?
24 A. Essentially north-south transects
25 extending from the levee between Water Conservation
141
1 Area 1 and 2 and extending south.
2 Q. How far south did you run your transects
3 approximately?
4 A. Approximately five or ten miles.
5 Q. Was the recordation of data essentially
6 the same as that which you described for Area 1
7 investigation?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You mentioned that in this particular
10 investigation there was some selective ground
11 truthing. What ground truthing was involved?
12 A. Either in this survey or in other
13 reconnaissance or helicopter surveys in this general
14 time period, if we were not able to tell for certain
15 what the species was from the air, we would fly down
16 very close and on occasion we would land to check a
17 species identification.
18 Q. Were species identification again done by
19 visual observation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Other than these times when you would
22 hover down lower or actually land, were you generally
23 making these visual observations from the same 1 to
24 200 feet altitude?
25 A. I don't recall saying 1 to 200 feet but
142
1 several hundred feet.
2 Q. Okay, several hundred feet.
3 A. To lower. It varied.
4 Q. And the percent cover again was determined
5 by visual observation?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Was there any ground truthing involved in
8 verifying the percent coverage data?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During this investigation into the
11 northern area of 2A in early 1990, was any data
12 collected on water quality?
13 A. No, not associated with this study.
14 Q. Was any data collected during this
15 investigation as to water levels?
16 A. Not that I specifically recall. If we did
17 happen to land, we may have recorded the area is dry
18 or particular water depth but it would have been an
19 incidental notation.
20 Q. The transects that were flown in this
21 particular investigation, did they join together to
22 cover the entire northern boundary of Area 2A?
23 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of
24 the question to the extent, I don't know what you
25 mean by joined together.
143
1 Q. Did the transects that you ran for this
2 investigation result in coverage of the entire
3 geographic area of northern 2A down five to ten miles
4 south of that northern boundary?
5 A. The transects were located and the length
6 of the transects were determined by the area in which
7 cattail occurred. Once we ran out of any significant
8 presence of cattail we essentially terminated the
9 transect.
10 Q. So flying south you would terminate the
11 transect at the end of any significant cattail, is
12 that correct?
13 A. That's correct. We would fly first beyond
14 that just to assure ourselves that we were out of the
15 area where there was any cattail occurrence other
16 than occasional or sporadic.
17 Q. How far south would you go beyond the end
18 of the transect to insure that you had actually
19 reached the end of the cattail coverage?
20 A. We probably flew at or in some instances
21 beyond the midpoint north-south of WCA-2A.
22 Q. Would the same be true from a generally
23 east-west direction on starting your transects, that
24 you went to wherever you saw the end of the cattail,
25 significant cattail coverage, and that was the last
144
1 transect that you would run?
2 A. I am sorry, would you repeat that
3 question?
4 Q. How many transects were run north to south
5 approximately?
6 A. I don't recall. I believe that they are
7 listed in the report.
8 It would have been a similar spacing to
9 what was done in the survey of WCA-1 and that was
10 done in the July 1989 original Larsen helicopter
11 survey. It would have been more than 6, less than 12
12 or 15, in that magnitude.
13 Q. What was, if you recall, the westernmost
14 transect that was run?
15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Locationwise?
16 MR. NETTLETON: Location.
17 Q. Was it run along the western boundary of
18 Area 2A?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there a transect run along the eastern
21 boundary of Area 2A?
22 A. Generally, yes.
23 Q. The results of this particular
24 investigation are contained in a report by Paul
25 Larsen, is that correct?
145
1 A. Either a report or a map of those results,
2 I believe.
3 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was an
4 actual report prepared?
5 A. I believe there was, but I am not
6 absolutely certain.
7 Q. Do you recall seeing a report which
8 contained information concerning the methodologies
9 and the process that you went through in collecting
10 the data for this particular investigation?
11 A. The methodology that we followed in this
12 one was the same as we reported for Loxahatchee.
13 Q. I understand that, but my question is do
14 you recall seeing a report specifically related to
15 this investigation in 2A which laid out that same
16 information?
17 A. I believe there was, but I am not
18 absolutely sure about that.
19 Q. Would I be correct that you would not have
20 been involved in preparing any such report if it
21 exists, the actual report itself?
22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Only a report that didn't
23 exist.
24 A. I did not prepare any report that didn't
25 exist.
146
1 Q. And how do you know that?
2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Isn't it true that you
3 don't know that.
4 A. Paul Larsen recorded the data for these
5 series of investigations and any reports that were
6 prepared were prepared by Paul Larsen, and my
7 involvement was in the visual estimates of the extent
8 of cattail.
9 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times
10 it was necessary to touch down for purposes of
11 specifically identifying species?
12 A. Infrequently.
13 Q. What species were generally involved where
14 you were required to touchdown?
15 A. As I recall, it was not possible from the
16 air to determine the specific species of smartweed,
17 as an example, and we would have touched down to
18 perhaps look at it. There may have been others, but
19 that's an example.
20 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record.
21 (Discussion off the record)
22 BY MR. NETTLETON:
23 Q. The next activity that you mentioned, Dr.
24 Dennis, was assisting with some ground truthing for
25 remote sensing analysis being performed by ERIM.
147
1 Am I correct that occurred in
2 approximately 1990?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Can you describe for me what your
5 involvement was in that activity?
6 A. It was principally to assist ERIM in the
7 review and picking of verifiable training stations
8 for their remote sensing analysis.
9 Q. What do you mean by training stations?
10 A. In conducting satellite imagery analysis,
11 one of the steps that is typically gone through is to
12 pick specific known points and sites on the ground
13 and determine what is there and then you have a known
14 vegetation type. And this you use in conducting your
15 overall vegetation analysis and classification going
16 through the standard satellite image classification
17 procedures.
18 Q. How many training stations were used or
19 chosen?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said you were involved in assisting
24 them in picking these training stations. How did you
25 go about assisting them in that regard?
148
1 A. What we -- this involves my involvement
2 with them. They may have done other things that I
3 was not involved in.
4 But my involvement was to go out with them
5 and pick areas that were representative of a specific
6 vegetation type. So we would, for instance, pick an
7 area that was essentially a solid sawgrass area and
8 we would record the Loran coordinates on that.
9 Then we would pick an area that was
10 predominantly cattail and record the location on
11 that.
12 So we would go to different vegetation
13 stands and vegetation communities to give them data
14 on what species were occurring there so they can use
15 that in their analysis.
16 Q. And it was a Loran that was used to
17 determine location, is that correct?
18 A. Yes. As I recall, Paul Larsen was also
19 along on those and he basically would record the
20 Loran readings.
21 I was essentially a back seat helicopter
22 person.
23 Q. Were these Loran coordinates recorded from
24 the air?
25 A. As I recall, they were typically recorded
149
1 by hovering in the air.
2 Q. What was the approximate size or dimension
3 of the training stations that were defined by this
4 activity?
5 A. We would try to pick as large an area as
6 we could that had a consistent vegetation type in it.
7 So we were interested in finding areas that were at
8 least 10 or more acres in size, as large an area as
9 we could that was homogeneous.
10 Q. Was there any guidelines you were
11 following as far as actually defining the size of a
12 particular training station that you were locating?
13 A. I don't recall. ERIM may have had that
14 information. I don't recall there being a specific
15 size requirement given to us.
16 Q. The training stations that you were
17 locating with the Loran, was there only a single
18 Loran coordinate recorded for a particular station?
19 A. I don't recall. My involvement was to
20 visually pick the areas and verify the vegetation
21 from the helicopter. And I was not working with the
22 maps or whatever sources that were being used for
23 verifying or picking the spot.
24 Q. Other than locating areas of homogeneous
25 cattail or sawgrass, did you locate any other types
150
1 of vegetative cover areas for training stations?
2 A. As I recall, we were trying to locate
3 primarily homogeneous stands of species and we may
4 have located some others or they may have recorded
5 some others. Again, my involvement was to assist in
6 picking areas that were generally homogeneous, and
7 those were the two species that I recall that were of
8 primary interest.
9 There may have been in other areas that
10 they recorded and took data on that we discussed or
11 said, this area is composed of this or that, but I
12 don't recall any others specifically.
13 Q. What about, were any training stations
14 located in areas of mixed cattail and sawgrass where
15 you would estimate the percentage cover?
16 A. There may have been but I don't recall
17 specifically.
18 Q. So you don't actually recall defining such
19 an area during this activity?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Approximately how long or how many trips
22 were involved in this activity where you were
23 assisting ERIM?
24 A. In total there may have been a half a
25 dozen, more or less.
151
1 Q. A half a dozen trips?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Approximately how many days were involved?
4 A. All or parts of half a dozen, more or
5 less, days.
6 Q. Were they sequential in the sense that
7 this was all done in approximately a one week period?
8 A. No. The total number of trips that I gave
9 you was probably over a longer period of time than
10 that which extended from when they began their study
11 to when they were producing their final draft maps.
12 Q. When did they produce their final draft
13 maps approximately?
14 A. In 1990, I believe.
15 Q. Do you recall any given month, season?
16 A. The closest that I can come right now is
17 mid to late 1990.
18 Q. When did they begin their work on this
19 matter?
20 A. As I recall, it was in the earlier part of
21 1990.
22 Q. Do you know what the dates of the remotely
23 sensed data was?
24 A. Again, I haven't reviewed that information
25 in some time. I don't recall specifically.
152
1 Q. Have you seen the remotely sensed data
2 prior to your activity in assisting them in ground
3 truthing activities, or, excuse me, in locating
4 training stations?
5 A. I am not sure I understand your question.
6 Q. Had you seen the remotely sensed data
7 prior to going out in the field with ERIM
8 representatives as you have described?
9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you talking about
10 data, a bunch of numbers, or a map?
11 MR. NETTLETON: Any data.
12 A. During the time period in which I assisted
13 ERIM I saw some satellite scenes and classifications.
14 Q. Other than your assistance in locating the
15 training stations as you have discussed, were you or
16 anyone else at BDA involved in any other type of
17 ground truthing activities with regard to ERIM's
18 work?
19 A. During the latter stages of their study
20 when they had some draft maps produced we assisted
21 them in ground truthing those draft maps.
22 Q. Do you recall whether the draft maps were
23 altered as a result of the ground truthing that was
24 conducted?
25 A. I would assume that the final maps were
153
1 produced taking into account the results of the
2 ground truthing that was done.
3 Q. This ground truthing that occurred
4 subsequent to the draft maps being produced, was that
5 done by helicopter?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Approximately how many trips were involved
8 that you are aware of that you were involved in?
9 A. That would have been within the same
10 number that I previously gave you.
11 Q. Who else other than yourself was involved
12 in any of these ground truthing activities relating
13 to the ERIM remote sensing data.
14 A. It was principally Paul Larsen and myself.
15 There may have been a day that I couldn't attend and
16 someone else from our company accompanied them. But
17 I don't recall specifically if that is the case.
18 Principally it was my involvement and Paul Larsen's
19 involvement.
20 Q. Was Jackie Ott also present during these
21 activities?
22 A. Yes, she was the ERIM person that we
23 coordinated with that was responsible for that part
24 of the investigation.
25 Q. Do you recall how many categories the
154
1 final ERIM map laid out?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. What is the geographic scope of the ERIM
4 map?
5 A. I believe that it generally covered the
6 Water Conservation Areas.
7 Q. All three Water Conservation Areas?
8 A. That's my recollection.
9 Q. Did it include the Park?
10 A. I was trying remember as you were asking
11 me the other question whether it did or not. I know
12 we did not conduct any aerial reconnaissance or
13 inspections of the Park, I didn't, as associated with
14 it.
15 Whether or not the Park was included on
16 the final maps, I don't specifically recall. I am
17 inclined to think that it covered principally the
18 three Water Conservation Areas.
19 Q. During these six or so trips that you made
20 in ground truthing as well as locating training
21 stations, did any of those activities occur in area 3
22 or 3A?
23 A. As I recall, we did look at some areas in
24 Water Conservation Area 3.
25 Q. Did this activity also include ground
155
1 truthing or locating training stations in Area 1?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Am I correct then that any of the
4 activities related to locating training stations or
5 ground truthing subsequent to the production of the
6 draft maps occurred in Areas 2 and 3?
7 A. I am sorry, would you repeat the question?
8 MR. NETTLETON: Read it back, please
9 (The question referred to was
10 thereupon read by the reporter
11 as above recorded)
12 A. ERIM personnel picked and selected their
13 training stations. And I don't know, and I don't
14 believe I have ever seen the results of their
15 specific training station locations.
16 Q. My question is directed to your activity.
17 A. Okay. I couldn't tell from your question,
18 I want to make sure that --
19 Q. Okay. I am referring to the six trips,
20 approximately six trips that you mentioned where you
21 were assisting them in locating training stations and
22 in ground truthing subsequent to the development of
23 the draft maps. Were all of those activities
24 conducted in Areas 2 and 3?
25 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
156
1 Q. Were any of those activities conducted in
2 areas 2B or 3B?
3 A. We may have looked at sites in 2B and 3B.
4 As I recall the process that we followed was
5 generally to fly around Water Conservation Area 2 and
6 3, including 2A -- I mean 2B and 3B and look at
7 possible training sites.
8 Q. During these six or so trips where you
9 were assisting ERIM, was there any water quality data
10 collected?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was there any water level data collected?
13 A. If it was it was an incidental field note
14 and not part of the primary mission.
15 Q. Do you have any specific recollection of
16 collecting any water level or other hydrology type
17 data during these trips?
18 A. No.
19 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record.
20 (Discussion off the record)
21 BY MR. NETTLETON:
22 Q. Did you have any input into the drafting
23 or revisions of any drafts of ERIM's report?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Did you provide any comments on any of the
157
1 draft ERIM reports other than the data you might have
2 collected in the ground truthing exercise?
3 A. To ERIM?
4 Q. Right.
5 A. I don't recall providing any direct
6 written comments to ERIM.
7 Q. How about oral comments?
8 A. Only to the extent that we may have been
9 discussing selection of their training stations or
10 ground truthing of their draft maps or they may have
11 called on occasion to ask for clarification on some
12 data or notation that they had made during our field
13 visits.
14 Q. Did you engage in any analysis of the
15 methodology utilized by ERIM in developing their
16 vegetation maps from any remotely sensed data?
17 A. For ERIM?
18 Q. For anybody.
19 A. I reviewed their methodology and discussed
20 the methodology with counsel.
21 Q. What conclusions did you reach with regard
22 to the methodology being used by ERIM?
23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, would you read
24 that question back.
25 (The question referred to was
158
1 thereupon read by the reporter
2 as above recorded)
3 A. As I discussed with counsel?
4 Q. No, I am just asking whether you discussed
5 it with counsel or not, I am not asking for your
6 actual communications.
7 I am asking what conclusions you reached
8 as a result of your review of ERIM's methodology,
9 whether or not you discussed them with counsel.
10 A. In general I felt that the logic and
11 general methodology that they were employing was
12 sound.
13 I had a question concerning the ability to
14 discern from the satellite image the specific
15 vegetation species as they might occur in different
16 parts of their growth stages.
17 And I also believed there was a limitation
18 on the resolution of the areas that they were able to
19 discern and map in their study.
20 Q. What was the resolution being used?
21 A. Basically it was the resolution of
22 Landsat, as I recall, Landsat photography.
23 Q. Do you recall what the resolution was?
24 A. Basically the issue was how small an area
25 could be adequately mapped, what resolution was ERIM
159
1 using in its mapping exercise, what area was its
2 smallest area of resolution.
3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you asking for pixel
4 size?
5 MR. NETTLETON: Thanks.
6 BY MR. NETTLETON:
7 Q. What were the pixel sizes?
8 A. I believe that the Landsat pixel sizes are
9 in the neighborhood of 60 meters or so.
10 Q. 60 by 60 meters?
11 A. Yes. That's my recollection. I might
12 need to go back and verify that.
13 Q. What was your concern about the ability to
14 discern the specific vegetative species that might
15 occur during different parts of the growth stage?
16 A. Depending on the year and the time of
17 year, the amount of water present on the particular
18 Landsat scene, cattail could be in a new growth
19 phase, an existing mature growth phase, you could
20 have areas where there was senescent cattails
21 present, and you could have cattails in differing
22 densities.
23 And those are all factors that need to be
24 taken into account in mapping of cattail.
25 Q. Were those factors taken into account by
160
1 ERIM when they prepared their map?
2 A. I think they took those into account as
3 best they could, and they certainly were aware of
4 those factors. And they took them into account, I
5 believe, to the best of their ability given inherent
6 limitations on the format in which they were working.
7 Q. Other than homogeneous stands of cattail
8 or sawgrass, were other categories of vegetation
9 included on ERIM's map?
10 A. As I recall, they primarily depicted areas
11 of cattail.
12 Q. And the areas of cattail that were
13 depicted, were they limited to homogeneous
14 communities of cattails?
15 A. As I recall, they depicted areas of
16 cattail. I don't recall whether they specifically
17 provided any different classes.
18 Q. In reviewing the draft and final maps
19 prepared by ERIM is it your recollection that there
20 were only essentially two categories depicted on the
21 maps, cattail and non-cattail?
22 A. That's my general recollection.
23 Q. Do you recall the percentage or
24 approximate percentage cattail cover that would be
25 necessary in order to be categorized as cattail on
161
1 the ERIM map?
2 A. It would have been the areas of denser
3 cattail or areas dominated principally by cattail
4 that were depicted.
5 Q. Am I correct that the areas depicted then
6 would not include areas that were, say, less than 50
7 percent cattail in coverage?
8 A. I don't recall whether 50 percent was used
9 and I don't recall if they described a particular
10 percentage.
11 Q. Based on your review of the draft and
12 final maps produced by ERIM, what was the approximate
13 acreage or hectares of cattail that were found in
14 Area 2A?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. Do you recall the approximate area of
17 coverage, meaning in terms of rough estimate of
18 percentage of Area 2A that showed cattail coverage on
19 the ERIM map?
20 A. It was generally as I recall in the
21 northern part of 2A. Beyond that I don't recall. It
22 has been a long time since I have looked at the
23 details of that report.
24 Q. Do you recall whether there were cattail
25 depicted on the map in the southern area of 2A?
162
1 A. I don't recall the specifics of those maps
2 beyond what I have already disclosed to you.
3 Q. Were there cattail on the maps depicted in
4 Area 3?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 Q. Were there cattails on the map depicted in
7 Area 1?
8 A. I believe they were in the southern part
9 of 1.
10 Q. The next activity you described was the
11 mapping activity that you went through which
12 ultimately led to development of the 1991 vegetative
13 map.
14 Can you generally describe for me what
15 activities you and others at BDA engaged in in order
16 to develop that 1991 map?
17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, just briefly, it is
18 five to twelve.
19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
21 after which the following proceedings
22 were had)
23 MR. NETTLETON: I think I had a pending
24 question.
25 (The question referred to was
163
1 thereupon read by the reporter
2 as above recorded)
3 BY MR. NETTLETON:
4 Q. Let me not just limit it to BDA if others
5 were involved in that activity too. Just give me a
6 general description of what activities were
7 undertaken to develop that map.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 We essentially did the following: We
10 obtained color infrared aerial photography and we
11 conducted helicopter surveys, airboat surveys and
12 sought the input of others on where have they seen
13 cattail growing.
14 And we compiled that information in a GIS
15 format.
16 Q. Was the first activity undertaken the
17 obtaining of the color infrared aerial photography?
18 A. That was among the first.
19 Q. Can you describe how the photography was
20 obtained, what type of aircraft was utilized?
21 A. An airplane.
22 Q. What type of airplane?
23 A. I don't recall the specific type of
24 airplane.
25 Q. What type of camera was utilized?
164
1 A. It was a nine by nine format aerial
2 camera.
3 Q. When you say nine by nine, what does that
4 refer to?
5 A. That is the size, nine inch by nine inch
6 format.
7 Q. What types of lenses were used?
8 A. I don't recall the specifics of the
9 lenses.
10 Q. Were any filters used during the
11 photography?
12 A. I believe they were but I don't recall
13 what lens-filter combination they used. That work
14 was contracted out and I believe that we may have
15 provided information on that. I just don't have it
16 in my head right now.
17 Q. Who did you contract with to conduct the
18 aerial photography? Let me strike that.
19 Who conducted the aerial photography?
20 (Pause)
21 A. I will have to go back and check. I know
22 Aerial Cartographics of America conducted the 1993
23 photography.
24 And I know that's not the question you
25 asked. I will have to go back and check to see
165
1 whether they are the ones that conducted the '91-'92
2 photography or whether there was another group.
3 Q. Did you or anyone at BDA have any input
4 into the methodologies utilized by whoever it was who
5 conducted the aerial photography?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was your input?
8 A. We specified the area of coverage and the
9 scale, the type of photography and specifications
10 concerning cloud cover and time of year.
11 Q. Was that the extent of your input?
12 A. That was generally what we asked for.
13 Q. Was the aerial photographer under contract
14 with BDA?
15 A. I am not sure. I remember Paul Larsen I
16 believe being involved and to some degree obtaining
17 that initial set of photography, and I don't recall
18 specifically whether they were contracted with us or
19 with Paul.
20 Again, I believe that information has been
21 provided and I can go through the documents and
22 probably find answers to those questions for you.
23 Q. Did the aerial photographer understand the
24 purpose of what the photography was going to be used
25 for?
166
1 A. I believe they did, yes.
2 Q. Were there discussions between yourself
3 and the aerial photographer concerning the
4 appropriate methodology to be used for obtaining
5 appropriate photographs?
6 A. I believe so, yes. We discussed that the
7 purpose was for vegetation mapping.
8 Q. Were there any written specifications or
9 anything similar to that that were provided to the
10 aerial photographer by you or someone else at BDA or
11 Paul Larsen?
12 A. I believe so, yes.
13 Q. And those would have included the areas
14 that you just mentioned?
15 A. I believe so.
16 Q. What was the area of coverage for the '91
17 map?
18 A. Again, I believe that the map with the
19 flight lines has been provided that would give you
20 the exact area of coverage.
21 Q. Do you recall what it was?
22 A. Generally I recall that it was, covered
23 Water Conservation Area 1, 2B, parts of 3.
24 Q. Any parts of the Park?
25 A. No.
167
1 Q. What was the scale that was specified?
2 A. Let me clarify, if there was any part of
3 the Park included, it was as an overlap of one of the
4 photographs. The Park was not specifically flown.
5 The scale was in the order of 1 to 36,000.
6 And again I don't recall whether, exactly which set
7 of photography I am recalling that on. If it varied
8 from that it was still in that general range of a
9 scale.
10 Q. Is that 36,000 feet?
11 A. It is 1 to 36,000 which --
12 Q. It doesn't matter.
13 One foot would equal 36,000 feet, is
14 that --
15 A. No.
16 Q. Explain what that means.
17 A. One inch would equal 3,000 feet on the
18 image, if it is 1 to 36,000 scale. You essentially
19 divide the scale by 12.
20 Q. What type of photography was specified?
21 A. Color infrared.
22 Q. Was that used for all of the photography
23 that was taken?
24 A. That's the only type we had flown.
25 Q. What were the specifications concerning
168
1 cloud cover?
2 A. We had a minimum, or a maximum cloud cover
3 specified in the request. I don't recall what the
4 specific cloud cover was.
5 Q. How was that quantified?
6 A. Less than a certain percent.
7 Q. What was the time of year specified?
8 A. Generally whenever they could get good
9 cloud-free flying conditions in the early winter
10 months. I believe some of the photography was taken
11 in February and perhaps some of it in early March.
12 Q. Would this be in February and March of
13 1991?
14 A. I believe that most of the photography was
15 flown in I believe February of 1991 and there may
16 have been some portions, smaller portions that were
17 flown in March of 1992.
18 Q. In March of '92?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. What was the reason for having some
21 portions flown in March of 1992?
22 A. As I recall, we didn't get all of the
23 coverage flown in 1991 that we had wanted.
24 Q. The areas that were photographed in March
25 1992, were those also photographed in February 1991?
169
1 A. I believe they were in addition to the
2 areas in February of 1991. The best information for
3 that is for us to review the flight lines.
4 Q. Do you recall the areas that were
5 photographed in March 1992?
6 A. Not specifically
7 I might also add that that photography has
8 been produced as part of the production of documents.
9 So we can go back and look at the particular aerial
10 photographs and determine what the exact dates were
11 and what the exact coverage was.
12 Q. What were the purposes of the helicopter
13 surveys that you mentioned?
14 A. Basically to ground truth, if you will,
15 the aerial photograph signatures and also to record
16 observations and locations of cattail.
17 Q. Would that also be the purpose of the
18 airboat surveys that you mentioned with regard to --
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Can you describe for me generally how you
21 went about or what methodology you utilized in ground
22 truthing the aerial photography signatures, aerial
23 photo signatures?
24 A. You say I did or are you asking me? I am
25 sorry, I didn't understand.
170
1 Q. I believe you just mentioned that you used
2 the helicopter surveys and airboat surveys to ground
3 truth the aerial photography signatures.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. I am asking what methodology or criteria
6 did you use for determining where to go for the
7 ground truthing.
8 A. We conducted general reconnaissance
9 overflights to assist us in locating where cattail
10 was growing. We did this in conjunction with a
11 photointerpretation of the aerial photographs.
12 So we would -- it was an iterative
13 process. We would look at aerials and we would find
14 areas where we thought the signatures indicated
15 cattail was growing. We would by helicopter or
16 airboat fly out to those areas and confirm our
17 photointerpretation.
18 As we were flying those missions we would
19 also pay attention to whether there were other areas
20 where cattail was occurring, and if we found other
21 areas of cattail occurrence, then we would come back
22 and look at the aerial photographs and identify the
23 signatures on those aerial photographs.
24 And that was done likewise with the
25 airboat. So we would go back and forth in an attempt
171
1 to try to capture and identify all the areas where we
2 would find cattail growing.
3 Q. Is it your belief that you actually
4 physically flew over every area that reflected
5 cattail growth based on the aerial photography?
6 A. We certainly attempted to, and I believe
7 we, as accurately as we could at that time, captured
8 the essence of the distribution of cattail.
9 Q. Were you during this 1991 mapping
10 activity, were you categorizing cattail by percentage
11 cover?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How was that percentage cover determined?
14 A. That process evolved as we were producing
15 or as we were identifying cattail occurrence and
16 distribution.
17 We began by identifying areas where either
18 we personally knew cattail was growing or we had
19 reports that cattail was growing. And we initially
20 went out and began to characterize those areas as
21 high, moderate or low density.
22 As the mapping effort proceeded that year
23 we began to refine those estimates of high, moderate
24 and low and attempted to put some percentages on
25 them.
172
1 So there was an evolving process of trying
2 to accurately depict the location and the general
3 density of cattail.
4 Q. In the final map that you produced from
5 this 1991 activity, does it break down cattail
6 coverage into three different densities or is there
7 more than that?
8 A. Actually, there is more than that.
9 Q. How were the percentages of cattail
10 distribution or density in a given area determined?
11 A. Visually.
12 Q. How many people other than yourself were
13 involved in visually observing these areas and
14 determining percentage cattail density?
15 A. It was done principally by Dr. Joe Birch
16 in our office or myself. There may have been some
17 others that assisted to some extent. But it was
18 generally the effort of Dr. Joe Birch and I.
19 Q. Did the areas that you personally were
20 determining cattail coverage density overlap to any
21 extent with areas that -- is Dr. or Mr. Birch?
22 A. Dr. Birch.
23 Q. -- that Dr. Birch was identifying? In
24 other words, did you both on separate occasions
25 happen to look at the same areas and determine
173
1 cattail coverage?
2 A. We would both, during the process of that
3 year, more or less, we both looked at the same
4 cattail areas, sometimes independently, if that is
5 your question.
6 Q. Let me try to rephrase the question.
7 For instance, did you take a specific
8 geographic area of the mapped area as kind of your
9 area to go out and do and then did Dr. Birch take
10 another area?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How was it determined which areas which of
13 you were looking at?
14 A. Dr. Birch was assigned the primary
15 responsibility for the entire cattail mapping
16 exercise, if you will.
17 Q. How much were you involved personally in
18 that particular identification?
19 A. My involvement essentially fell into these
20 areas.
21 I coordinated with Dr. Birch on the scope
22 of what we were trying to accomplish in the '91
23 cattail map, the methods, general methods that we
24 would use.
25 I would assist as he requested and from
174
1 time to time on my own review in looking at the
2 aerial photography and the particular delineations or
3 percent cover estimates that were developed.
4 I would report back areas where I had seen
5 cattail growing, give some general information on how
6 much was there, whether it was a large area, sparse,
7 generally, high density, whatever it might have been.
8 And I was involved in discussions
9 concerning the scale and type of aerial photography
10 and the coverage of the aerial photography, and then
11 general collaboration with Dr. Birch as the map was
12 being produced or the data was being gathered and put
13 in the GIS format.
14 And then I was involved in generally
15 reviewing the the mapped product with Dr. Birch to
16 assure myself that the procedures, methodologies that
17 we had discussed were implemented and followed and
18 that to the best of our collective abilities we had
19 produced a map that generally depicted the locations
20 and densities of cattail as we understood them during
21 that period of time.
22 Q. Am I correct, what you just described was
23 in essence your total involvement in the mapping
24 process that occurred in 1991? I think you went a
25 little beyond what my original question was. I just
175
1 want to make sure --
2 A. I probably did and I apologize.
3 Q. That is all right.
4 A. I apologize to both counsel.
5 Q. I would like to go back to just clarify
6 one thing, and then we can break.
7 I am trying to get a feel for other than
8 Dr. Birch, were you actually involved in going out in
9 the field and reporting back your determination of
10 percentage of cattail coverage in a specific
11 geographic area that was ultimately included on the
12 map?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You mentioned other than Joe Birch and
15 yourself others may have assisted. How would these
16 others have assisted in this particular task of
17 determining cattail density in a given area?
18 A. They may have collaborated with Dr. Birch
19 in looking at a particular aerial photograph and
20 saying that this area looks like cattail or this area
21 doesn't, and here's what I think the percentage was.
22 It is typical to have that kind of
23 intraoffice collaboration going on.
24 The responsibility for assigning the
25 percentage value rested with Dr. Birch.
176
1 Q. Did he personally observe all of the areas
2 that were ultimately assigned any percentage value of
3 cattail?
4 A. Yes, he would have observed them either on
5 the aerial photography or in the field.
6 Q. Am I correct then that Dr. Birch did not
7 visually observe in the field all of the areas that
8 were assigned some percentage of cattail coverage on
9 the map?
10 A. Define for me areas.
11 Q. Any area depicted on your 1991 map which
12 indicates there is some percentage of cattail
13 coverage.
14 A. I may be suffering from a semantics issue.
15 Q. What don't you understand?
16 A. Dr. Birch reviewed on the aerials and in
17 the field all of the areas where cattail were mapped.
18 He undoubtedly did not inspect in detail each
19 specific meter on the ground of where they were
20 mapped.
21 Q. Or --
22 A. That is that.
23 Q. -- in a helicopter overflight?
24 A. Or in a helicopter overflight. He would
25 have reviewed all of the areas either on the ground
177
1 or in an overflight.
2 Maybe I am splitting hairs, but trying to
3 make sure that you understand, he reviewed all --
4 there were no areas where cattail were mapped in this
5 part of the conservation area or up here or there
6 that weren't ground truthed either from the ground or
7 the air. But I can't tell you that each square foot
8 of ground was actually detail inspected.
9 Is that clarification clear?
10 Q. To some extent.
11 Let me ask just one more question. You
12 have heard that before, haven't you.
13 Was there any verification exercises
14 performed on the ground to verify the accuracy of Dr.
15 Birch's determinations from his visual observations
16 of percent coverage of cattail in a given area?
17 MR. KOBELINSKI: When you say visual, you
18 are talking about his photointerpretation?
19 Q. My understanding of your testimony is that
20 Dr. Birch through visual observation determined
21 percentage of cattail density in a given area. Is
22 that not correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. That is correct. That's what I thought.
25 My question is was there ever any
178
1 verification exercises performed on the ground to
2 verify his determination of the percentage of cattail
3 coverage?
4 A. There were constant checks on the
5 vegetation cover estimates that were performed
6 throughout the year long, plus or minus, mapping
7 process.
8 I am not sure I understand the source of
9 your --
10 Q. Let me give you another example.
11 MS. STARK: Off the record.
12 (Discussion off the record)
13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you saying was there
14 ground truthing on the ground truthing done? You are
15 losing me also.
16 MR. NETTLETON: No.
17 BY MR. NETTLETON:
18 Q. Let me give you an example of what I am
19 thinking about.
20 As a verification did anyone go to a
21 particular geographic area that was labeled, for
22 example, 50 percent cattail coverage and take any
23 size plot out of that area and do a vegetative count
24 of the amount of cattail or a biomass determination
25 of cattail versus other vegetation or anything of
179
1 that nature?
2 A. There may have been some incidental
3 analyses of that nature done but, no, that was not a
4 part of the verification.
5 Q. You said there were constant checks,
6 though. What checks were made?
7 A. We would identify an area from the aerial
8 photographs. We would map it, assign a cover value.
9 And then we would -- and initially high, moderate or
10 low value may have been assigned, and then we had to
11 go back and put some coverage estimates on that.
12 So one thing we were working out during
13 that '91 mapping effort was how to best describe the
14 percentages of cattail.
15 And so we would go back to an area that we
16 mapped and we looked and said, okay, here's what we
17 mapped it, do we still think that is correct. That
18 is the kind of check.
19 Q. Who would be involved in those kind of
20 checks? Would that again be Dr. Birch?
21 A. Principally Dr. Birch.
22 MR. NETTLETON: Why don't we break
23 (Luncheon recess)
24
25
180
1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 1:20 p.m.
3 BY MR. NETTLETON:
4 Q. Dr. Dennis, with regard to the 1991 aerial
5 photography, were photographs taken of the entire
6 area mapped or only selected sections of the area
7 mapped?
8 A. I believe that there were areas that were
9 mapped that were not covered by the photography.
10 Q. Do you recall just generally
11 percentagewise how much of the area mapped, which
12 would be essentially the EPAs without the Park, what
13 percentage of that was not photographed?
14 A. I don't know that percentage.
15 Q. Was less than 50 percent of the area
16 mapped photographed?
17 A. More.
18 Q. Do you know what altitude the photographs
19 were taken at?
20 A. That would have been in the documentation.
21 I don't recall the altitude.
22 Q. Do you recall generally what it was within
23 hundreds of feet or anything?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you recall whether the altitude
181
1 remained constant for all the photographs that were
2 taken for the 1991 mapping?
3 A. All the '91 photography was shot at as
4 near the same altitude as the pilot could maintain.
5 Q. And the precise data concerning locations,
6 altitude and so forth would be contained in the
7 documentation from the aerial photographer?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Over your lunch break did it happen to
10 occur to you maybe who that aerial photographer was
11 for the 1991 mapping?
12 A. No, it didn't.
13 Q. For the 1991 mapping were you looking at
14 any species of vegetation other than cattail? Maybe
15 I should clarify my question.
16 Were you mapping any species of vegetation
17 other than cattail?
18 A. For the 1991 cattail map, no.
19 Q. Did you collect data concerning other
20 vegetative species during your 1991 mapping
21 activities which were simply not used in developing
22 the map itself?
23 A. You are referring to the 1991 cattail map?
24 Q. Right.
25 A. No, unless it was incidental notations or
182
1 information.
2 Q. Was there any water quality data collected
3 in conjunction with your 1991 mapping activities?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was there any water level data collected
6 in conjunction with your 1991 mapping activities?
7 A. If it was, it was incidental notations.
8 Q. What precipitated the activity undertaken
9 to map for 1993? Why were you asked to go out and do
10 another mapping exercise of the conservation areas in
11 1993?
12 A. We noted some areas where cattail was
13 occurring in the latter '92 early '93 time period and
14 therefore we felt that to get an up-to-date
15 representation of the extent of cattail it would be
16 necessary to remap the area.
17 Q. Again, could you describe for me what
18 activities were undertaken in order to complete the
19 1993 mapping?
20 A. Yes. The 1993 map was produced by
21 obtaining an updated 1993 set of aerial photography
22 and conducting aerial and ground control and ground
23 truthing surveys from airboats, again taking the data
24 and entering it into a GIS format.
25 Q. Were any of these specifications and/or
183
1 methodology utilized for the aerial photography
2 changed between 1991 and 1993?
3 A. The general types and specifications were
4 the same or similar. The geographic area was
5 somewhat different.
6 Q. The 1993 mapping used color infrared
7 aerial photography, is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Was a nine by nine format aerial camera
10 used as well?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The photography for the 1993 mapping was
13 conducted by Aerial Cartographers of America, is that
14 right?
15 A. Aerial Cartographics of America.
16 Q. Where is Aerial Cartographics located,
17 their business operation?
18 A. They have various localities or offices
19 throughout the United States, I believe.
20 Q. Which office were you dealing with?
21 A. The Orlando office.
22 Q. Who were the principal persons from that
23 office that were involved in the actual taking of the
24 photography?
25 A. I don't know.
184
1 Q. Did you use have any direct dealings with
2 them, discussions of any sort?
3 A. Not that I recall.
4 Q. Did Aerial Cartographics have a contract
5 with BDA to perform this 1993 aerial photography?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Do you know what types of lenses or
8 filters were used in the 1993 photography?
9 A. Not specifically.
10 Q. Were you or anyone at BDA involved in
11 specifying the appropriate lenses or filters to use?
12 A. There are various filters that can be used
13 with color infrared aerial photography, and we may
14 have had general discussions with ACA concerning what
15 film-filter combinations were providing the best
16 clarification and resolution of vegetation based on
17 their recent experience and our experience.
18 Q. Based upon your experience what is the
19 best combination of film and filter to be used with
20 color infrared aerial photography for the best
21 resolution for vegetative mapping purposes, as was
22 this exercise?
23 A. The type that we ultimately decided to use
24 on this mission. The aerial photography that we got
25 back in 1993 was excellent. I don't recall what the
185
1 exact specifications were.
2 Q. Without specific regard to what was or
3 what was not used in either the 1991 or 1993 aerial
4 photography, can you just tell me from your
5 experience what is an appropriate if not the best
6 combination of film, filter or lenses to be used for
7 this type of an exercise?
8 A. I can tell you what lens and filters I
9 have used taking small format color infrared aerial
10 photography that typically work very well.
11 Q. Tell me what those combinations are.
12 A. Using a Hassalblad 70 millimeter camera,
13 we will often use a 40 millimeter Distagon lens with
14 either a Wratten 12 or a Wratten 15 filter.
15 Q. Any particular speed of film?
16 A. We use a particular Kodak color infrared
17 film and I don't recall the exact number on that film
18 right now.
19 Q. You said you have used this in small
20 format, is that what you referred to?
21 (Pause)
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What does small format mean?
24 A. Either 35 millimeter or 70 millimeter
25 aerial photography as opposed to the standard nine by
186
1 nine mapping cameras.
2 Q. Prior to the mapping done in 1991 or 1993
3 had you ever utilized nine by nine equipment before?
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of
5 the question to the extent you are saying utilized.
6 Does that mean has he operated, has he ever used film
7 taken from a nine by nine?
8 MR. NETTLETON: The latter, for purposes
9 of developing vegetation maps, or analyzing
10 vegetation.
11 A. I have never taken nine by nine aerial
12 photography personally.
13 We very commonly routinely use nine by
14 nine color infrared aerial photography in vegetation
15 mapping.
16 Q. Other than possible discussions on the
17 appropriate film-filter combinations and so forth,
18 did you or anyone else at BDA provide any other input
19 to ACA concerning the appropriate methodology to be
20 utilized for the aerial photography for the 1993
21 mapping exercise?
22 A. As I recall, there were discussions
23 concerning the use of a motion compensating camera
24 which they had, and also their use or ability to
25 locate the center of the photographic image with GPS
187
1 equipment located in the airplane.
2 Q. Was the motion compensating camera used in
3 the 1993 mapping?
4 A. Yes, I believe so.
5 Q. Was a motion compensating camera used in
6 the 1991 mapping?
7 A. I don't believe so, but I am not
8 absolutely sure.
9 Q. What were the nature of the discussions
10 concerning the ability to locate the center of the
11 photograph with GIS equipment in the airplane?
12 A. As I recall, they made that information
13 and knowledge available to us, that they had that
14 capacity.
15 Q. Was that capacity utilized?
16 A. I believe it was but I would have to go
17 back and double check.
18 Q. GPA, is that what we were referring to?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE COURT REPORTER: Counsel, did you say
21 GPA?
22 MR. NETTLETON: Yes.
23 A. I am sorry. I wasn't listening carefully
24 enough. I thought you said GPS.
25 Q. What is the GPS equipment in the airplane,
188
1 what does it do?
2 A. It is a global positioning system which
3 allows location determinations in real space.
4 Q. Was GPS equipment used in the 1991
5 mapping?
6 A. During the latter stages of the process,
7 yes, it was.
8 Q. Let me revert back to the 1991 mapping.
9 How was GPS utilized in the latter stages of the
10 process?
11 A. We used GPS to locate certain cattail
12 locations as a navigation and field identification
13 tool.
14 Q. Who operated the GPS equipment for the
15 1991 mapping?
16 A. Dr. Joe Birch.
17 Q. Was GPS used for the entire 1991 mapping?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What was used for those areas that did not
20 use GPS?
21 A. Either aerial photography or Loran.
22 Q. What mechanism was used again for the 1991
23 mapping for determining the location of the aerial
24 photography?
25 A. I am sorry, would you repeat the question?
189
1 Q. How was the location of a particular
2 photograph determined for the 1991 mapping?
3 A. By identifying some particular feature
4 such as levees, control structures, those types of
5 readily identifiable physical features.
6 Q. If that exercise were being used would
7 that indicate that there was no GPS equipment
8 utilized in the airplane used in the 1991 mapping?
9 A. We obtained GPS equipment sometime within
10 the time frame of constructing the 1991 cattail map
11 and when we obtained it and we began using it.
12 Q. Am I correct the GPS equipment was not
13 utilized in conjunction with or concurrently with the
14 taking of the aerial photographs?
15 A. I don't believe so.
16 Q. Again, still referring to the 1991 mapping
17 activity, you had also indicated that as part of that
18 activity you sought input from others on where they
19 saw cattail growing. Can you describe in a little
20 more detail what you meant by that, what input and
21 how you reacted to that input?
22 A. There were other scientists that were
23 conducting various investigations in the EPA during
24 that time period, and when there would be meetings in
25 which those scientists would be present it was not
190
1 uncommon for them to indicate that they had seen
2 cattail in this area or that area or the other area.
3 And we would take that information and see if we had
4 indeed mapped cattail in that area and captured it on
5 that map.
6 Q. If your looking at the map had suggested
7 that you had not mapped cattail, what would you do?
8 A. We would investigate that area and map it.
9 Q. Did that occur at any time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall how many times?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you recall how many areas that you
14 visited or approximately how many areas you visited
15 as a result of input from other scientists which
16 suggested cattail existed in a location which you had
17 not originally mapped as containing cattail?
18 A. No. And if I could clarify your question,
19 it might have been that it wasn't either mapped or we
20 hadn't investigated that area yet to map it.
21 Q. Am I correct there were some occasions
22 when you were advised by scientists working in the
23 EPA that certain areas contained cattails where your
24 map at that time did not indicate there were cattails
25 in that area following your mapping of that
191
1 particular area?
2 A. Yes, I believe that occurred on some
3 occasions.
4 Q. Do you recall of those occurrences what
5 the largest area of cattail you subsequently
6 discovered as a result of input from these other
7 scientists working in the area?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Do you have any general range of what the
10 areas generally acreagewise were?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was there any generality to the percent
13 cover of cattail in the areas that you were directed
14 to by other scientists working in the area?
15 A. Would you rephrase that question, please?
16 Q. Did you find any similarity in the
17 coverage, percent coverage or density of the cattail
18 in the areas that you were referred to by scientists
19 working in the area?
20 A. Not that I recall.
21 Q. You have mentioned I think for both the
22 1991 map and the 1993 map that you compiled the
23 information into a GIS format, is that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Can you describe for me what a GIS format
192
1 is? What does that mean?
2 A. GIS is geographic information system, and
3 it is a computer-based system for locating either a
4 point, a line or a polygon in real space and
5 capturing data associated with that line, point or
6 polygon.
7 Q. What do you mean by capturing data?
8 A. You can enumerate or list various
9 attributes to those locations.
10 Q. For instance, cattail coverage, is that
11 what you are referring to?
12 A. That would be a for instance.
13 Q. Does this computer based system then
14 essentially outline your geographic areas within the
15 map for whatever the given data is you are looking to
16 map?
17 A. Would you rephrase that question?
18 Q. Excuse my naivete.
19 Explain to me how the GIS format is
20 utilized in this exercise to develop a map.
21 A. The GIS format is one in which you can
22 enter either mapped data or tabular data into the
23 particular software system that forms the basis for
24 the particular GIS system.
25 That allows that capture of mapped
193
1 information or tabular information for then the
2 production of maps or tables from that data and it
3 allows for query of the information that's contained
4 in it to ask specific questions.
5 So the GIS system is a very powerful
6 relatively recently developed system which allows not
7 only the capture of data and the making of maps but
8 the asking of questions and analysis of the data.
9 Q. Give me an example of what you mean by
10 asking questions.
11 A. Sure. If you were interested in
12 determining the population estimate within a certain
13 distance of a particular road intersection, if you
14 had a map of the road grid and you had population
15 data for the area that was recorded geographically,
16 and you had those two data layers in your GIS system,
17 you could query the data base and say, or the system
18 and say, how many people live within five miles of
19 the intersection of Oak and Pine Street. And the
20 computer would go through its machinations and give
21 you the answer.
22 Q. So with regard to the information that you
23 collected and utilized in this exercise, you could
24 ask how many acres of cattail exist within Area 2A
25 and it would give you the answer?
194
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You mentioned that the 1993 mapping
3 covered a different geographic area. What was the
4 difference in the area from the 1991 mapping?
5 A. If I recall correctly, I believe I
6 indicated that the aerial photography covered a
7 different area.
8 Q. Okay. What was the difference in the
9 area?
10 A. The aerial photography that was taken in
11 1993 was not as extensivive as that taken in the
12 previous time period.
13 Q. Why was that?
14 A. Cost and prior knowledge.
15 Q. On a rough estimate would you say that
16 less than 50 percent of the area mapped in 1993 was
17 aerial photographed?
18 A. I think it was probably still more than 50
19 percent. Again, I would refer you to the flight
20 lines of exact aerial coverage.
21 Q. The ground truthing that was done for the
22 1993 mapping, was that again done by helicopter and
23 airboat?
24 A. And airplane.
25 Q. And airplane.
195
1 Was the ground truthing essentially the
2 same as what you described occurred for the 1991
3 mapping activity?
4 A. It included those activities.
5 Q. What additional activities were included
6 in the 1993 ground truthing?
7 A. As part of the 1993 cattail map
8 development and in a sense part of the ground
9 truthing, because we have been using ground truthing
10 in a rather broad generic sense, there was another
11 procedure that we implemented in performing the 1993
12 map that we had not utilized or utilized very
13 extensively in the 1991 map.
14 Q. What was that procedure?
15 A. That procedure was to fly in fixed wing
16 aircraft or record data while moving in an airboat on
17 cattail occurrence and density by recording that data
18 in a GPS data logger.
19 Q. Starting with the activity on an airboat,
20 describe for me how that was accomplished.
21 A. We would travel in an airboat and have a
22 GPS unit set up in the airboat and travel on certain
23 transects and record with a pen and bar code system
24 what the percentage estimate of cattail coverage was.
25 Each time an entry was made, it would
196
1 automatically record the latitude and longitude of
2 that notation.
3 Q. How was the percentage of cattail coverage
4 determined?
5 A. Visually.
6 Q. What do you mean by a pen and bar code
7 system, what is that?
8 A. Without getting into the esoteric
9 technical aspects of how it works, essentially there
10 is a GPS unit which you can attach or utilize with
11 bar codes, the same type of bar code system that is
12 used at your grocery store when you buy groceries and
13 you go through the checkout line and they go zip,
14 zip, zip, zip, and they go across all those little
15 bars and record how much each item cost.
16 Well, there is a system in which you can
17 develop your bar codes and specify this bar code will
18 be for 90 to 100 percent cattail, this bar code will
19 be for some other percentage cattail.
20 And then as you are actually conducting
21 the transect in the field you make your visual
22 observations, and as you make them, rather than
23 having to stop and record off of a GPS unit that only
24 reads out the latitude and longitude once you stop,
25 you can continue moving and make your visual
197
1 observation, make the pen notation across the
2 appropriate bar code for the percentage coverage that
3 you estimate.
4 That automatically records that point in
5 terms of its location and that data in terms of its
6 coverage in the GPS unit.
7 Q. How many different percentage coverage bar
8 codes were there for the 1993 mapping?
9 A. They are indicated on the 1993 cattail map
10 here.
11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
12 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
13 after which the following proceedings
14 were had)
15 MR. NETTLETON: Let's go ahead and mark
16 this.
17 (Dennis Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked
18 for identification)
19 BY MR. NETTLETON:
20 Q. Dr. Dennis, referring to Exhibit 3, does
21 that refresh your recollection as to the number of
22 bar code categories there were for percent cattail
23 coverage for the 1993 mapping?
24 A. Yes, it does.
25 Q. What was the number?
198
1 A. Nine.
2 Q. Could you just for the record read out the
3 various categories?
4 A. Yes. They extend from a high of 90 to 100
5 percent and go in decreasing order as follows: 75 to
6 less than 90 percent, 50 to less than 75 percent, 25
7 to less than 50 percent, 10 to less than 25 percent,
8 5 to less than 10 percent, 1 to less than 5 percent,
9 .1 to less than 1 percent, and less than .1 percent.
10 Q. Am I correct that the determination of
11 which bar code to input into the GPS system on the
12 airboat was made by visual observation as you were
13 moving through the area?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Who was actually involved in doing these
16 visual observations and inputting the appropriate
17 cattail coverage into the system?
18 A. Dr. Joe Birch.
19 Q. Was anyone else involved in that activity?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you accompany Dr. Birch when he was
22 engaged in this activity?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How fast would the airboat be moving
25 during this exercise?
199
1 A. At various speeds depending on the density
2 of the vegetation and the depth of the water.
3 Q. Do you have a range of speeds it was
4 generally being done at?
5 A. There was no specific speed range that I
6 am aware of. It depended on the type of vegetation,
7 the density of the vegetation.
8 Q. You mentioned a similar activity was
9 undertaken by airplane, is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Were the same bar codes utilized for the
12 airplane visual observations?
13 A. The same categories, yes.
14 Q. Who conducted those activities from the
15 airplane, that is, determining a percentage?
16 A. Dr. Joe Birch.
17 Q. Do you know what type of airplane it was?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. What type was it?
20 A. It was a Cessna 180 Skywagon.
21 Q. Going back to the airboat activity in this
22 regard, was there a set parameter as far as distance
23 between inputs into percentage categories? In other
24 words, did you travel a given distance and then input
25 another percentage category or was it randomly chosen
200
1 as you moved down the transect?
2 A. There was not a fixed interval used.
3 Q. Was there an attempt to your knowledge
4 made to input a new bar code each time there was a
5 change from one of the nine categories to another as
6 you moved down the transect?
7 A. I don't understand the question.
8 Q. In other words, if Dr. Birch were
9 traveling down this transect in the airboat, would he
10 make an effort to your knowledge to input a new bar
11 code category each time he noticed a change in the
12 density to reflect the different category?
13 A. At least that often.
14 Q. So if he were traveling and moved from
15 what he considered from his visual observation
16 cattail less than .1 percent area density to
17 something greater than .1 percent area density but
18 less than 5 percent, he would bar code that second
19 code in at the place where he visually observed the
20 change?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. How was this done in the airplane, how did
23 it differ if at all from how it was done in the
24 airboat?
25 A. Procedurally it didn't differ at all. It
201
1 only differed in the platform that was used. In one
2 instance an airboat platform was used, in another
3 instance an airplane platform was used.
4 Q. What was the altitude that the airplane
5 was flying at?
6 A. Approximately 300 feet.
7 Q. Was that a given parameter or
8 specification to try to maintain approximately 300
9 feet for purposes of this exercise?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When Dr. Birch was making his visual
12 observations of cattail density from 300 feet, what
13 was his field of vision for what he was recording?
14 A. He was looking out one side of the
15 airplane down at the ground.
16 Q. So he was recording what was directly
17 underneath the airplane?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What was he recording?
20 A. He couldn't see what was directly
21 underneath the airplane so he was recording what was
22 essentially as close to or comfortably where he could
23 see out the airplane at the nearest part of the
24 ground.
25 Q. You didn't strap him to the belly of the
202
1 plane?
2 A. No, we didn't.
3 Q. Was the GPS equipment calibrated in such a
4 way or was any correction made to the locations based
5 upon his field of vision?
6 A. No, I don't believe so.
7 Q. What was the general scope or width of a
8 transect that was being visually observed by Dr.
9 Birch in making his reportings.
10 A. Each data entry was recorded along the
11 transect line with Dr. Birch looking at approximately
12 a five acre, plus or minus, area.
13 Q. Five acres in width?
14 A. Well, acres is an areal determination.
15 Q. Were there any specific dimensions, in
16 essence was he looking at a square dimension or oval
17 dimension or just generic visual approximate five
18 acres?
19 A. I believe that Dr. Birch had a certain
20 configuration that he had trained himself to. And I
21 believe it was generally a rectangular configuration.
22 But I don't recall the specifics of that.
23 Q. I am trying to visualize how a percentage
24 of cattail is determined, say, if you are going from
25 a monoculture of cattail which is essentially 90 to
203
1 100 percent cattail coverage into a lesser dense
2 area, say it drops off to a 20 to 30 percent cattail
3 coverage, if that is both within the five acre
4 square, do you average the 80 and the 20 and come up
5 with 50 or how is that determined?
6 A. As I believe I mentioned, there was not a
7 fixed interval between observations so I believe that
8 the general process was, whether in airboat or the
9 airplane, to move along and record a cattail density
10 every so often. And that would pay special attention
11 to any changes in density.
12 This data was used in conjunction with the
13 aerial photography to formulate the delineation
14 between coverage types as depicted on the Exhibit 3.
15 Q. Am I correct that you were involved in
16 developing what has been marked as Exhibit 3?
17 A. In collaboration with Dr. Joe Birch,
18 correct.
19 Q. Would the same be true with regard to the
20 1991 cattail map?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Can you tell me what processes you went
23 through in order to create Exhibit 3, what materials
24 you utilized to create Exhibit 3? You have mentioned
25 the aerial photographs and then this data that is
204
1 collected through the ground truthing exercises. Was
2 there any other material?
3 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to form. Are
4 you referring to additional data? You lost me on the
5 question. I apologize.
6 MR. NETTLETON: Data is fine. I think
7 that's a generic term.
8 A. There was certain base map information
9 that was used to geographically locate and depict,
10 for instance, the boundaries of the levees and canals
11 or the lines which depict the levees and canals on
12 the map.
13 Q. I am sorry, what did you say was used to
14 do that?
15 A. Information to develop a base map.
16 Q. What information are you referring to?
17 A. The boundaries of the Water Conservation
18 Areas and the locations of the canals and/or levees
19 and physical features such as that were obtained by
20 utilizing various sources, and I don't believe I can
21 enumerate for you exactly what sources and
22 cartographic procedures were used to formulate the
23 boundaries as depicted on here.
24 But in essence the process involved the
25 establishment of a reliable geographically based base
205
1 map, and then taking the aerial photographs and the
2 GPS data which was downloaded into the GIS system,
3 using all that information in combination, the final
4 depictions were presented on the map.
5 Q. Am I correct that the map is, referring to
6 the 1993 map marked as Exhibit 3, is essentially the
7 output of the GIS system?
8 A. I am sorry, rephrase the question, please.
9 Q. Describe for me physically how Exhibit 3
10 was generated? How was that generated?
11 A. I thought I just did that.
12 Q. I guess I am trying to figure out, I am
13 assuming this map is not hand drawn, it is it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is it computer generated?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the inputs into the computer program
18 or software that was used to generate this map, what
19 were they? Tell me that again.
20 A. Existing maps at reliable scales were used
21 to generate the lines which represent physical
22 features such as canals or levees on the map.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. And that was in essence a computerized
25 cartographic process.
206
1 The depictions of the boundaries and
2 various densities of cattail as depicted on the map
3 were entered into the geographic information system
4 and that entry would have been either in the form of
5 digitized boundaries taken off the color infrared
6 aerial photography which we discussed earlier or the
7 GPS points, GPS located points which we discussed
8 earlier.
9 So those two data sources were used as the
10 basis for production of the final or the map as you
11 see depicted here.
12 Q. You need to bear with me because unlike
13 Mark I have not sat through a lot of these similar
14 type depos.
15 How do you convert the aerial photography
16 into digitized data?
17 A. In essence, the nine by nine aerial
18 photograph is photointerpreted, and typically a clear
19 acetate overlay is placed on the aerial photograph.
20 That clear acetate overlay is registered with the
21 corners and marks that are on the aerial photograph.
22 Then with a very fine point pen the
23 boundaries of the cattails that could be seen and
24 interpreted were drawn.
25 Those aerial photographs with those
207
1 overlays were then subjected to digitization, by that
2 I mean a digitizing pad and indicator was used to
3 accurately and precisely capture the boundaries of
4 the delineated cattail areas, and the densities that
5 were ascribed to those delineations were identified
6 and were entered with that particular polygon
7 delineation.
8 That digitization then, which is a
9 computer process, allowed that bit of data to become
10 a part of the geographic information system data
11 base.
12 By using that data and the precise GPS
13 points, those two sources of data could be analyzed
14 and decisions made as to what the final delineations
15 on this, as depicted on this Exhibit 3 would be.
16 So those two data bases were used in
17 combination to try to as accurately and precisely as
18 possible capture the extent and densities of the
19 cattail that we observed in the field.
20 Q. The first step in this process you
21 mentioned was that the photograph is
22 photointerpreted. What do you go into to
23 photointerpret the photograph?
24 A. Typically you take the nine by nine color
25 infrared photograph and using some optical equipment
208
1 which magnifies the photograph to an appropriate
2 level of magnification so that you can perform the
3 delineation, considering the resolution of the
4 photography and the area that you want to delineate,
5 sometimes that is done on a stereoscopic
6 photointerpretation and sometimes it is done
7 monocularly.
8 And you photointerpret the aerial
9 photograph by looking at the color, texture and
10 pattern of the vegetation signatures that you see.
11 So with your experience as a
12 photointerpreter and your ground truthing efforts you
13 draw the delineations and identify the vegetation
14 type or species assemblage, and in this instance also
15 record a density classification, or a coverage
16 classification.
17 Q. Prior to engaging in this
18 photointerpretation, are there any points of
19 reference established in order to identify color,
20 texture and pattern of a particular vegetative
21 species you are trying to identify in the
22 photographs?
23 THE WITNESS: Would you please read that
24 question back.
25 (The question referred to was
209
1 thereupon read by the reporter
2 as above recorded)
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you describe how that is done? What
5 is involved in that?
6 A. Typically that involves going in the field
7 with the aerial photograph and picking a particular
8 spot or area which is illustrative of a particular
9 color, pattern or texture, and accurately determining
10 what that, in this case, vegetation that is causing
11 that particular vegetative photographic signature.
12 So you would pick a spot on the aerial, go
13 to the field and say, what is this area. And you
14 would say, okay, that is cattail. And I know it is
15 cattail because I am either flying right over it or I
16 am in it in an airboat or I am walking on the ground
17 and I can discern that on this aerial photograph,
18 yes, I see it, I see the pattern of it, this is
19 cattail.
20 With that knowledge you go back and with
21 the appropriate magnification for the type of
22 delineation you are doing, you use that knowledge to
23 photointerpret the area.
24 Q. The nine categories of cattail coverage
25 reflected on Exhibit 3, does each of those categories
210
1 or did each of those categories have a different
2 photographic signature that you identified or
3 categorized in your photointerpretation?
4 A. Not exactly.
5 Q. Can you please explain?
6 A. Yes, I think so. I will sure try.
7 This effort was to attempt to map the
8 location and the density of cattail.
9 In the higher density categories, for
10 instance, where the cattail was from 90 to 100
11 percent, that was rather clearly associated with a
12 recognizable vegetative signature.
13 In the other categories, to one degree or
14 another, the vegetative signature was similar or
15 different depending on the location and overall
16 vegetation community.
17 But what we attempted to do was to
18 recognize on the aerials, where we could, those areas
19 that had cattail and assign one of these densities to
20 it.
21 Q. Am I correct that the vegetative signature
22 would in essence tell you that there is cattail in
23 the photograph, is that right?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And from there you would then make a
211
1 determination based upon your viewing of the
2 photograph of what percentage area of that particular
3 area had, what density, what category it fell into on
4 Exhibit 3?
5 A. To the extent we could do that from the
6 aerial photograph, yes.
7 Q. And if you couldn't do that from the
8 aerial photograph, how was it done?
9 A. Then we relied more on the GPS data.
10 Q. If you didn't have GPS data for a
11 particular area and you were having difficulty
12 determining the cattail coverage from the photograph,
13 what criteria were used then to establish or input a
14 particular category of density or coverage?
15 A. In all the areas mapped we either had
16 photographic coverage or GPS site specific data.
17 Q. You just mentioned that through the
18 photointerpretation sometimes it was difficult to
19 determine the percent coverage of cattail in a given
20 photographed area and you would then rely on the GPS
21 for that. My question is what if you had no GPS for
22 that particular area, how would you then determine
23 the percent of coverage of cattail?
24 A. Perhaps you should rephrase your question
25 because I am about to give you the same answer I just
212
1 gave you and I am not sure that's clarifying the
2 issue for you.
3 Q. Give me the answer again and maybe I will
4 understand it this time.
5 A. Would you or the court reporter ask the
6 question again, please.
7 MR. NETTLETON: Read back the question,
8 please.
9 (The question referred to was
10 thereupon read by the reporter
11 as above recorded)
12 A. Let me try again.
13 By using the aerial photography there were
14 certain areas where cattail could very easily be seen
15 and we could determine the densities. In those
16 instances we used the aerial photograph as the main
17 source of information, checking it with any GPS data
18 points that we had within that area.
19 And that generally worked well and
20 reliably for the higher density or higher coverage
21 value cattail areas.
22 In the lower coverage cattail areas it was
23 not always easy to tell what the cattail coverage
24 was. And in some instances it might not be possible
25 to discern the cattail as occurring in a particular
213
1 area based on the aerial photo signatures, the
2 resolution just wasn't there to determine it.
3 What we found was that by using the
4 airboat and the fixed wing aircraft GPS surveys we
5 could in those lower density category areas, we could
6 more reliably determine the presence and assign a
7 density value to a particular area.
8 In taking the GPS data points, there were
9 a lot of those taken. This procedure and this
10 equipment allowed us to record a data point every one
11 to five seconds. So we would use that information
12 and the aerial photographs to determine areas and
13 boundaries of a cattail at a particular density.
14 If on a particular point we could not tell
15 from the aerial photograph if that particular point
16 underneath our pen, for instance, had cattail or not
17 or what density of cattail it was, and there was not
18 a GPS point that fell right under our pen, then we
19 would use whatever surrounding GPS data points there
20 were and the aerial photography to discern a general
21 vegetation boundary.
22 In other words, if we didn't know the
23 point under our pen but we had 20 other points that
24 all indicated visual estimate of coverage of 1 to 5
25 percent, and we could see a vegetation boundary, even
214
1 though we didn't know there was cattail in there, we
2 could discern a vegetation boundary on the
3 photographs, we would use that vegetation boundary in
4 concert with those 20 GPS points and make the
5 assumption that for that general area that cattail
6 occurence and density was a certain percent.
7 Q. Is there a difference in the vegetative
8 signature based upon the time of day the photograph
9 is taken?
10 A. Yes, the time of day can cause the color
11 to be, you know, various degrees of shades of
12 whatever color it would typically be. This
13 photography is called false color infrared
14 photography, so the colors are not what you and I
15 would see with our eyes.
16 And you use the relative colors rather
17 than the absolute colors in doing your
18 photointerpretation. And that can be influenced by
19 time of day.
20 Q. Can it also be influenced by shading
21 effects of clouds and so forth?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is there a means of normalizing the data
24 to create a uniform signature based upon photographs
25 taken at different times of the day and so forth?
215
1 A. Typically, aerial photographs are taken
2 within a certain specified part of the day and
3 typically they are not taken real early in the
4 morning and typically they are not taken real late in
5 the afternoon, but somewhere in the middle part of
6 the day, to reduce shadows.
7 Taking aerial photographs in South Florida
8 is problematic and often frustrating because of the
9 fact that you need cloud-free coverage and depending
10 on the time of the year, clouds start appearing at
11 sometime in the morning and extend through the day.
12 So one thing that could be done is try to take the
13 photographs at a same or similar time of day.
14 Q. Did you experience any difficulties with
15 regard to identifying vegetative signatures for
16 sawgrass as a result of the timing of the photographs
17 or the shading that may have occurred on any given
18 day that these photographs were taken in either the
19 1993 or 1991 mapping exercise?
20 A. You indicated sawgrass.
21 Q. I mean cattail, if I said sawgrass.
22 A. We were able to identify cattail pretty
23 readily in the higher density categories. It became
24 difficult the lower the density of cattail was, the
25 more it became mixed, which is one reason we went to
216
1 this combined methodology.
2 Q. What do you mean by higher density? Which
3 categories would fall within the higher density
4 categories?
5 A. I keep saying density, I should be saying
6 cover, the higher coverage percentages, which
7 translates into density.
8 Somehow it doesn't matter but to be
9 precise we are talking about coverage.
10 Certainly the 90 to 100 percent is a high
11 coverage percentage.
12 75 to 90 percent; 50 to 75 percent.
13 Once you get below 50 percent, then it
14 is --
15 Q. So a 50 percent or higher coverage was in
16 your view fairly easy to identify through the aerial
17 photography?
18 A. In most instances, yes, and perhaps even a
19 little bit lower than that, depending on how clumpy
20 the cattail was.
21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
22 (Discussion off the record)
23 BY MR. NETTLETON:
24 Q. I notice that Exhibit 3 indicates that it
25 is a preliminary draft. Do you intend to make any
217
1 further revisions to this 1993 cattail map?
2 MR. KOBELINSKI: When you say revisions,
3 are you referring to data changes?
4 MR. NETTLETON: Any changes.
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would object to the
6 extent that you are asking him in what format our
7 trial exhibits will be. I think for like reasons we
8 at this point are not disclosing trial exhibits or
9 intents for trial exhibits. So to the extent you are
10 asking that I instruct him not to answer, as far as
11 data, additions and deletions, things like that --
12 MR. NETTLETON: I am not asking about the
13 colors on the thing and so forth.
14 BY MR. NETTLETON:
15 Q. My question is do you intend to make any
16 further substantive revisions to the 1993 cattail map
17 from today forward?
18 A. I don't anticipate any substantive
19 changes. As counsel indicated, there may be format
20 changes. But in essence we don't anticipate any new
21 or additional information beyond what is here.
22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
23 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
24 after which the following proceedings
25 were had)
218
1 BY MR. NETTLETON:
2 Q. Dr. Dennis, with regard to the 1993
3 cattail map marked as Exhibit 3, who did the
4 photointerpretation that was used to develop that?
5 A. Principally Dr. Joe Birch.
6 Q. Who did the, again, for the 1993 cattail
7 map marked as Exhibit 3, who did the drawing of the
8 boundaries on the acetate overlay?
9 A. Principally Dr. Joe Birch.
10 Q. And the process that takes the photos and
11 the overlays and converts that to digital data, how
12 is that done?
13 A. That aerial photograph with the acetate
14 overlay is given to a computer scientist or a
15 technician that knows how to digitize, and they
16 follow their standard protocols and procedures for
17 the particular type of software and digitize it.
18 Q. For purposes of the 1993 map who digitized
19 the information?
20 A. There probably were various individuals in
21 our computer GIS group that worked on that.
22 Q. Do you know specifically which of your
23 computer technicians were involved?
24 (Pause)
25 A. Principally Derrick Davis and Bob Henry.
219
1 Q. Is there something on Exhibit 3 that
2 identifies who they were?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is that?
5 A. The notation underneath the heading
6 Breedlove, Dennis & Associates, Inc., that indicates
7 various initials and slashes.
8 Q. Do the computer technicians also digitize
9 the information concerning the density?
10 A. Well, that information is not what I would
11 consider digitized but it is captured by them.
12 Q. You had mentioned before that the density
13 is entered with the polygon of the cattail area.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. How is that captured?
16 A. Once the polygon is digitized, then
17 certain commands are given to the system and it tells
18 it what it is and what coverage value it is.
19 Q. And that is input by the computer
20 technicians?
21 A. From the acetate, yes.
22 Q. For the 1991 map who conducted the
23 photointerpretation for that map?
24 A. Principally Dr. Joe Birch.
25 Q. And for the 1991 map which hopefully we
220
1 will mark tomorrow if Mark kindly provides us another
2 copy.
3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Actually, you want to
4 take a quick break, I am not sure if we have one,
5 maybe you can call and see if they can FedEx one.
6 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
7 after which the following proceedings
8 were had)
9 BY MR. NETTLETON:
10 Q. For the 1991 map, was it Dr. Birch again
11 who was primarily involved in drawing the boundaries
12 on the acetate overlays?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Would it be computer technicians at BDA
15 who would have been involved in the converting the
16 photos and overlays to digitized data for the 1991
17 map?
18 A. Computer technicians or scientists.
19 Q. Do you know without looking at that map
20 which individuals were involved for the 1991 map?
21 A. Not specifically.
22 Q. You mentioned as one of the activities you
23 undertook to answer or to perform the task of
24 relating to the cattail occurrence and spread in the
25 conservation areas, that you reviewed various
221
1 vegetation maps. One of them you mentioned was the
2 Work Order 32 vegetation map or maps. Was there more
3 than one vegetation map relating to the Work Order
4 32?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What areas were mapped pursuant to Work
7 Order 32?
8 A. Essentially the Loxahatchee Wildlife
9 Refuge or Conservation Area 1.
10 Q. What was the time period that was depicted
11 in the Work Order 32 map or maps?
12 A. There was one map that was, as I recall, a
13 1950 era map and there was a, I believe, 1960s map,
14 and then there was a satellite image map that I
15 believe was based on a 1987 spot satellite scene.
16 Q. Any other time periods?
17 A. Those are the ones I can recall.
18 Q. How were those maps utilized if at all in
19 performing your task of determining the occurrence
20 and spread of cattail in the EPA?
21 A. Well, the two earlier version maps depict
22 the vegetation associations as determined by various
23 investigators at that time, and the 1987 spot
24 satellite map depicts the extent of cattail in
25 various categories that that primary investigator
222
1 could determine from the satellite image.
2 Q. Have you reached any conclusion concerning
3 the accuracy or reliability of the Work Order 32
4 maps?
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Vegetative maps?
6 MR. NETTLETON: Yes.
7 A. Yes.
8 BY MR. NETTLETON:
9 Q. What conclusions have you reached?
10 A. I believe the two earlier version maps
11 which are depicted in some of the Work Order 32
12 documents that were taken from previous investigators
13 are generally representative of the vegetation
14 patterns that existed at the time those maps were
15 produced. Those are coarse maps and therefore I
16 believe are reliable only to the degree of coarseness
17 that is inherent in them.
18 The 1987 SPOT map I believe provides a
19 good overall representation of the general vegetative
20 patterns within WCA-1. But I believe that it suffers
21 from the same problems that satellite image maps
22 experience.
23 Q. What problems are those?
24 A. Satellite maps are I believe very good and
25 accurate for determining vegetation patterns over a
223
1 broad landscape area, and the more distinct and
2 homogeneous the vegetation or the land use patterns
3 are, the more accurate and useful the satellite map.
4 In other words, I believe a satellite map would be
5 very good for delineating between sugar cane and
6 marsh vegetation.
7 The finer the vegetation category that you
8 are seeking to map and the more complex that
9 vegetation mosaic is, the less accuracy and
10 reliability I believe can be placed on the satellite
11 map.
12 Q. When producing maps from satellite
13 imagery, is it typically, are analyses available to
14 determine at least statistically the accuracy or
15 reliability of the map?
16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Can you repeat the
17 question? I didn't hear exactly what you said. I am
18 sorry.
19 (The question referred to was
20 thereupon read by the reporter
21 as above recorded)
22 A. Yes, there are various statistical ways to
23 analyze sources of error in a map.
24 Q. Other than analyzing sources of error, are
25 there also analyses available for determining the
224
1 accuracy or reliability of the map in accurately
2 displaying the vegetation in question?
3 A. Would you rephrase that question, please?
4 Q. I don't know that I can.
5 Are there analyses available for
6 determining or quantifying, if you will, the accuracy
7 or reliability of a map developed from satellite
8 imagery?
9 A. There are various statistical procedures
10 available to analyze the reliability of the
11 classification of the vegetation or whatever
12 categories on the satellite image.
13 There is not to my knowledge an inherent
14 method or statistic within the computer regimen or
15 classification system for a satellite image to tell
16 you how faithfully this satellite image and the
17 classification that you have conducted on that
18 satellite image represents exactly what is on the
19 ground.
20 Q. Can that be done if you have sufficient
21 data from ground truthing?
22 A. There are ways to take sufficiently
23 accurate and precise ground truthing information and
24 test the accuracy of the depictions on the satellite
25 image in terms of the classification an investigator
225
1 may have performed.
2 Q. Did you or anyone at BDA perform any
3 statistical or other analyses for purposes of
4 determining accuracy, reliability, I am using those
5 terms loosely, of the 1993 or 1991 cattail maps that
6 you created from aerial photography?
7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form.
8 Are you talking about without ground
9 truthing or are you --
10 MR. NETTLETON: Right.
11 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- just talking about the
12 final product?
13 A. To my knowledge we have not performed any
14 overall statistical test of the accuracy of the 1993
15 map.
16 BY MR. NETTLETON:
17 Q. What about the 1991 map?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mentioned earlier also reviewing
20 Larsen's report and cattail maps. Are those the maps
21 we discussed earlier that were developed as a result
22 of your survey or your helicopter overflights of
23 Areas 2A and 1? Or are these different maps?
24 A. Those are the maps that I was referring
25 to.
226
1 Q. You mentioned you also reviewed the
2 Rutchey map of 1991 in the 1991 report.
3 Have you reached any conclusions
4 concerning the accuracy or reliability of that
5 particular map?
6 A. In general it appears to pretty much agree
7 with our 1991 cattail map.
8 Q. Does that translate into, you have
9 concluded that it is fairly accurate and reliable?
10 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will object to the form
11 to the extent, counsel, you are asking him to compare
12 a map --
13 MR. NETTLETON: I didn't ask him to
14 compare a map.
15 MR. KOBELINSKI: You are talking about the
16 reliabilities of a map that covers more than just
17 cattail. It covers other plant communities.
18 Are you asking him as to reliabilities as
19 to each one of the classifications of plant
20 communities or are you just talking about overall
21 reliability of the map?
22 BY MR. NETTLETON:
23 Q. Have you reached any conclusions, Dr.
24 Dennis, concerning the accuracy and reliability, and
25 again I am using them in a generic sense, since they
227
1 may have specific scientific meanings that I am not
2 familiar with, of the overall Rutchey map reported in
3 the Rutchey 1991 report?
4 A. Do you have a copy of that map that I
5 could briefly review?
6 (Pause)
7 Q. I have a black and white version. I don't
8 know if that will help you any.
9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you going to mark
10 this?
11 MR. NETTLETON: Not right now.
12 (Pause)
13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
14 (Discussion off the record)
15 BY MR. NETTLETON:
16 Q. My question, Dr. Dennis, was not really
17 requesting you to review Rutchey's work during the
18 deposition but just whether in your previous review
19 and so forth, whether you have reached any conclusion
20 as to the general accuracy and reliability of the map
21 created by, or depicted in the Rutchey 1991 report --
22 excuse me, Rutchey 1992.
23 (Pause)
24 A. That's one of the reasons I wanted to make
25 sure that we were talking about the same map.
228
1 Q. The document we are showing you is dated
2 September 1992 and it was produced with your
3 documents so I assume that's what you have seen
4 previously.
5 A. That's correct.
6 (Pause)
7 A. I have reviewed this generally with regard
8 to the cattail categories and therefore my answer
9 reflects in general terms that you requested my
10 opinion concerning the depiction of the various
11 cattail or cattail mixed with other vegetation.
12 And in general, and within the -- and
13 acknowledging the recognized accuracy limits that
14 Rutchey placed on this map, again in general gross
15 terms, the areas of cattail depicted are generally
16 similar to the areas identified as cattail in our
17 1991 map.
18 Q. That's where we started.
19 A. I am sorry, I thought that that was a good
20 complete answer.
21 Q. Am I correct then, Dr. Dennis, that you
22 have concluded essentially that with regard to the
23 cattail categories as reflected in the Rutchey 1992
24 report, that those are fairly accurate and reliable
25 depictions of location for the data in question,
229
1 subject, of course, to the accuracy characterization
2 as contained in the report?
3 A. I believe that is close to my answer but
4 not exactly my answer.
5 Q. What is the difference? What is the
6 qualification that I am missing?
7 A. The qualification that you are missing, I
8 believe, is that there are some areas mapped as
9 cattail which, based on our 1991 cattail map, I don't
10 believe are cattail, and in some instances, the exact
11 boundaries I don't believe are there, are accurate.
12 But in general terms, with qualifications
13 of the accuracy of the Rutchey reports and the fact
14 that a direct side by side comparison of our 1991
15 cattail map and this satellite map are not totally
16 coincident, but they are, I think, generally and
17 fairly representative of cattails in the particular
18 areas and extent that they depict.
19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, I would also
20 note for the record that we as yet have been unable
21 to get into the Rutchey computer files that have been
22 sen to us.
23 So I believe the witness is basing this
24 just merely upon putting two pictures next to each
25 other and looking at them.
230
1 MR. NETTLETON: That's where I was headed.
2 MR. KOBELINSKI: We haven't had the same
3 luck getting from Dr. Rutchey or Mr. Rutchey the
4 manner in which to access his files.
5 MR. NETTLETON: We haven't been able to
6 get into yours either.
7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I think you have.
8 BY MR. NETTLETON:
9 Q. Your comments concerning your belief that
10 there are cattail depicted which are not cattail
11 areas and the boundaries and so forth you don't
12 believe are completely accurate, is that based solely
13 upon a comparison between the Rutchey map and your
14 map as you developed for 1991?
15 A. It is based on that comparison, the field
16 inspections and visits that we conducted to prepare
17 the 1991 map and the visual comparison of the two.
18 Q. The field inspections that you conducted
19 for your 1991 map would be actually reflected in the
20 1991 map, would they not?
21 A. Essentially, yes.
22 Q. And you understand, do you not, that the
23 satellite image that was depicted in the Rutchey map
24 was based upon a different date than the photographs
25 that were utilized in your 1991 map, is that right?
231
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also mentioned that you had reviewed
3 the Jensen, I don't have a date on it, but Jensen
4 report.
5 Can you tell me if you have reached any
6 conclusions concerning the accuracy and reliability
7 of the Jensen maps as contained in that report?
8 A. I have just very recently received the
9 Jensen maps and report, and have only had an
10 opportunity to review it in general terms.
11 Q. From your review in general terms, have
12 you formed any conclusions or preliminary conclusions
13 concerning the accuracy or reliability of the maps
14 contained in the Jensen report?
15 A. Would you perchance in your same bundle of
16 materials have a copy of the Jensen report that I
17 could review?
18 (Pause)
19 Q. Yes, I do. Again, the report that I am
20 handing you seems to have a handwritten date of
21 January 1994. I don't know if that is the date of
22 the report or someone else wrote that on there but
23 this was produced with your documents and I believe
24 actually has color pictures in it.
25 (Pause)
232
1 A. Then perhaps it was produced to us in
2 color.
3 (Pause)
4 MR. NETTLETON: Why don't you go ahead and
5 mark these, mark the Rutchey 1992 report as Exhibit 4
6 and we will mark the Jensen report as Exhibit 5.
7 (Dennis Exhibits 4 and 5 were marked for
8 identification)
9 MR. KOBELINSKI: You might want to
10 identify this a little more, because there are two
11 Jensen reports.
12 MR. NETTLETON: For the record, what we
13 have marked as Exhibit 5 is the Jensen et al. report.
14 I believe the other report that you referred to, Mr.
15 Kobelinski, is only Jensen as the author.
16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
17 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
18 after which the following proceedings
19 were had)
20 BY MR. NETTLETON:
21 Q. Do you recall the question?
22 A. I think I do but for clarification, could
23 you read it back, please.
24 (The portion referred to was
25 thereupon read by the reporter
233
1 as above recorded)
2 A. And I believe where we were is that I
3 indicated that I only recently received a copy of
4 this and only conducted a preliminary evaluation to
5 date.
6 But in answer to your question of any
7 general conclusions so far, I believe that the maps
8 which depict change in cattail amounts in WCA-2A are
9 and should be subject to some reservation.
10 Q. Which specific page are you referring to?
11 Is there a page or table number?
12 A. This is Bates page 1296038 which depicts
13 Wetland Classification Maps of Water Conservation
14 Area 2A Based on Analysis of Normalized Satellite
15 Remotely Sensed Data, and there are images from
16 February 22, 1973, April 2, 1976, January 17, 1982,
17 April 4, 1987 and those I believe are Landsat MSS
18 data which I need to clarify an answer I gave you
19 earlier this morning when I told you I wasn't exactly
20 sure of what the resolution of Landsat imagery was.
21 And it is in here and I can refresh myself
22 on that now, it is 79 by 79 meters. I was close but
23 not exactly on.
24 And I think the question of reliability of
25 these maps and the analysis stems from at least these
234
1 considerations, one is that the dates of the images
2 vary quite dramatically throughout the year. There
3 are some images in February, some in April, some in
4 January and some in August.
5 And cattail can appear spectrally very
6 different depending on the season of the year. In
7 other words, if you take an image such as August when
8 the cattail is in its full mature growth form the
9 spectral signature and image that it would give off
10 would be different from what you would expect to find
11 in January, February or probably even April when it
12 would be at a different time in the growing cycle.
13 So comparing, as I understand he did, the
14 1991 SPOT image with various dates from essentially
15 the dry season or half a year away in terms of time,
16 and if he was using, which he appears to be, the 1991
17 image to in essence, quote, ground truth, end quote,
18 or validate his prior images, I think that opens a
19 lot of questions about the reliability of the
20 analysis of those prior images.
21 There is also the question of, and this
22 may have been considered, it may have been addressed
23 but I couldn't readily find it in my review of the
24 paper, consideration of what the water levels were on
25 these various dates.
235
1 The cattail signature can be greatly
2 influenced on satellite imagery by the amount of
3 water present, because the water and the cattail
4 interact to provide a reflectance pattern.
5 So I don't know whether that was
6 adequately taken into account or not.
7 There was a different scale of resolution
8 between the SPOT image and the Landsat MSSW image
9 which would need to be considered. And again it may
10 have, but I don't know that that's the case.
11 And as Dr. Jensen, who is a very,
12 typically a very accomplished and certainly very well
13 published scientist, as he notes in here, there is no
14 way to determine an accuracy estimate on any of those
15 prior images.
16 So we don't have any assessment of that.
17 Something else that is somewhat
18 troublesome, and there may be an explanation but I
19 don't know how to explain it at this time, there was
20 evidently a normalization process used to take out
21 the or to address the problems of different dates and
22 angles and what have you that is explained in here.
23 And just by a visual comparison of the
24 color infrared composites of Water Conservation Area
25 2A in the Florida Everglades based on SPOT RGB equal
236
1 bands 3,2,1 and MSS RGB equal bands 4,2 and 1 on
2 Bates number 1296035, just by visual inspection, I
3 don't readily understand what was done in the
4 normalization process that created such different
5 maps or series of satellite images between the color
6 infrared composites, that section of maps that I
7 referred to and the wetland classification maps that
8 were normalized.
9 And I readily acknowledge that just a
10 visual comparison of those is not a full and adequate
11 analysis of that normalization question.
12 But if you look at just the color
13 patterns, and you can generally tell where the sun
14 reflectance angles are a problem, it appears that
15 there is not as much difference in overall vegetation
16 patterns on the normalized set of images as there is
17 on the composites.
18 So --
19 Q. You mean the infrared images?
20 A. The infrared images.
21 So it appears that the general patterns,
22 you can follow the general patterns of vegetation on
23 the composites and you see certain areas of change.
24 But then when you go through the normalized set, it
25 doesn't appear that you are seeing the same general
237
1 categories of change. And again, I readily
2 acknowledge that this is an eyeball sitting at a
3 deposition kind of an analysis of that and that more
4 thorough investigation of that process is required.
5 But that's troublesome just in general
6 review of this document.
7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would note for the
8 record also that Dr. Dennis could perhaps tell you
9 what happened when he loaded on Dr. Jensen's tapes to
10 his computer. It melted his hard drive.
11 MR. NETTLETON: I didn't put it there.
12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I assume you didn't.
13 A. One other comment that I would make in
14 general concerning this analysis is that in working
15 with ERIM on the ground truthing and review of the
16 satellite image analysis that we talked about earlier
17 this morning, I believe, I know that there was a real
18 problem that I don't think was ever satisfactorily
19 resolved, and that is how to, in the satellite
20 photography and the classification systems based on
21 it that were performed, how to adequately address, if
22 you are trying to map or depict the extent of
23 cattail, how to accurately take into account the fact
24 that that in an area you may have cattail growing
25 pretty well, growing up and green and in one growth
238
1 condition, and in another area you may have a mixture
2 of resprouting, regrowing cattail mixed with older
3 cattail stems that are in a senescent, fallen-over
4 brown mode, and how to take that and all the rest of
5 the variation that exist, in cattail growth stations,
6 and get enough sampling stations and training
7 stations to capture that degree of variability so
8 that you can accurately depict the overall extent of
9 the cattail.
10 And I don't know that that was done in
11 here. In fact, I am relatively sure it was not,
12 based on some of the comments in the paper.
13 Q. How does varying the water level affect
14 the cattail signature from a satellite image?
15 A. The satellite sensor, and it is not the
16 satellite but the sensor that is mounted in the
17 satellite that is recording the data, is in essence
18 recording spectral signatures in different wavelength
19 bands. And those spectral signatures are influenced
20 by varying factors, and one of those factors is
21 water.
22 So if you have -- just think in terms of
23 if you were flying over the Everglades and looking
24 down from a helicopter, the cattail would look
25 differently to you if it was growing in standing
239
1 water, pick a depth, several feet deep, and you just
2 had the tops part, the top half or less of a cattail
3 sticking up with the water there, than it would look
4 to you if there was not any water there or there was
5 very low water there.
6 So you flying over would take that into
7 account in your mind and say, yes, it is still
8 cattail there but I know that it is cattail because I
9 see the form and color and texture and all of those
10 type things. And you would still recognize it as
11 cattail whether or not it was in standing water or
12 not standing water, with a little experience or if
13 you were flying low enough.
14 But the satellite sensor has to know that
15 this is cattail and it is growing in water and this
16 is the same cattail and it is growing not in water.
17 And it has to be able to understand the spectral
18 signatures of each of those and know that each of
19 them are still cattail. It doesn't matter that one
20 has water standing there and one doesn't have water
21 standing there, they are both cattail.
22 But what it sees is cattail without water
23 and cattail with water.
24 If you have enough training stations in
25 the sense that we used that term this morning, where
240
1 you have enough samples of cattail not growing in
2 water and enough cattail growing in water, so that
3 you can train the computer that both of those are
4 cattail, then you will come out with an accurate
5 depiction.
6 If you don't have enough training stations
7 to do that, then you are going to miss one of those
8 probably as being cattail.
9 And since there were in essence no real
10 ground truth stations for any of the maps other than
11 the 1991 Rutchey SPOT map, that creates a real
12 problem in some of that earlier imagery.
13 Q. I assume since you just recently received
14 Exhibit 5 and that information that that was not
15 utilized in any way in creating your 1993 map or 1991
16 map, is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Was the Rutchey map included in Exhibit 4
19 utilized in any way by you in developing your 1991
20 map?
21 A. No.
22 Q. With regard to the activity you conducted
23 in developing your 1993 map, was there any concurrent
24 collection of water quality data?
25 A. No, there was no systematized collection
241
1 of water quality data. Any notes taken on that would
2 have been incidental data notations.
3 Q. And was there any data on water levels
4 collected with regard to your 1993 map?
5 A. I am sorry, was the last question the 1991
6 map?
7 Q. No, it was water quality, now I am asking
8 about water levels.
9 A. I am sorry. There was no water quality
10 data taken associated with the 1993 cattail map. I
11 answered one question too early.
12 Q. Were there water level data collected in
13 conjunction with the creation of the 1993 map?
14 A. No systematized collection of water level
15 data. Any data that would have been collected would
16 have been incidental data notations.
17 Q. Why would you be making the incidental
18 data notations, if you did?
19 A. I don't know that we did, but without
20 taking the time to go through each bit of field
21 information data, I left myself some latitude in that
22 answer.
23 The only reason we would have taken any is
24 if Dr. Joe Birch when he was out there wanted to
25 clarify a curiosity, a question that he may have had,
242
1 and stopped the airboat and put a staff gauge down in
2 the water.
3 Q. Another task that you identified yesterday
4 that you undertook was to determine or to evaluate
5 why cattail is growing where it is growing. Is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me again what steps you took
9 to address that particular task?
10 A. Generally we looked at areas where cattail
11 was growing and then gathered whatever available data
12 we could that was readily available on the history of
13 that area, prior documentation of the history of that
14 area, whatever available water quality, water
15 quantity, hydroperiod data might be available, and in
16 some instances took some specific data ourselves.
17 Q. Were there any other steps or activities
18 undertaken to address the evaluation of why cattails
19 were growing where they were growing?
20 A. We took all of that data and analyzed it,
21 synthesized it and tried to discern what factors or
22 causes appeared to be influencing the occurrence of
23 cattail at that area.
24 Q. Can you tell me approximately when you
25 began any work in regard to this particular task?
243
1 A. We essentially began with wrestling with
2 that question pretty soon after we started work on
3 this project. So it would be in late 1989 or early
4 1990.
5 Q. Was any type of written proposal created
6 setting forth a work or research plan to address this
7 issue?
8 A. As we discussed yesterday, only to the
9 extent that we identified specific areas or specific
10 activities that we felt would shed light on that
11 question. And we would discuss that with counsel and
12 review cost and time issues associated with those
13 investigations, and then any joint decision would be
14 made as to, yes, this looks like a fruitful area to
15 investigate that would shed light on that question.
16 And then with that determination, we would
17 begin.
18 Q. Before you would begin the physical
19 activity, would you prepare any type of written work
20 plan, whether or not it was provided to counsel, for
21 purposes of your own use or those of other scientists
22 with BDA?
23 A. We typically would prepare for counsel a
24 general description of the specific work effort and
25 generally how it was to be accomplished.
244
1 Q. Would you include in that description the
2 identities of the people who would be involved in the
3 actual work?
4 A. Typically not.
5 Q. Were you personally involved in any of the
6 research or study that was conducted in order to
7 address the task of evaluating why cattails are
8 growing where they are growing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Other than yourself, who else was involved
11 in addressing that issue with BDA?
12 A. There were a number of scientists that
13 have participated in various aspects of those
14 investigations.
15 Q. Can you tell me what their names are?
16 A. Yes. Dr. Joe Birch, George Carlson,
17 Courtney Hackney, Dr. Hackney, to a degree Dr. Bill
18 Grey. There were others who participated in some
19 field data collection but who were not involved in
20 the overall analysis answering of the question.
21 Q. What were the names of the individuals
22 involved only in the field data collection but not
23 the analysis?
24 A. As I recall, some of those would include
25 Bob Epperson, Linda Henninger, Alicia Oiler, to a
245
1 degree Bud Smart, the computer scientist that
2 assisted in the capture of some of the data in the
3 GIS system, and that probably was Jeff Collins.
4 Q. Was he a field data collection person?
5 A. Yes. And there probably are a few others
6 that I can't recall right now who may have taken a
7 bit of data here and there.
8 Q. Are all these people you identified
9 employees or former employees of BDA?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Other than employees at BDA, did you
12 obtain any assistance or was there any participation
13 by any other persons in working on this particular
14 task of evaluating why cattails were growing where
15 they are growing?
16 A. We have used data of others in this
17 analysis.
18 Q. I am not referring to other people in the
19 sense that they may have collected data you utilized,
20 but was there anybody else that was specifically
21 involved outside of BDA that assisted you in this
22 particular project?
23 A. Not in developing and carrying out
24 specific tasks that we conducted to give us
25 information on this question that I can recall right
246
1 now.
2 Q. The first activity you mentioned was
3 looking at areas where cattails were growing. What
4 specific areas were looked at for this project?
5 A. We looked at the area south of the 10
6 structures in the northern part of 2A, we looked at
7 the perimeter area of primarily the southern
8 perimeter area of WCA-1, an area that I refer to as
9 the S-9 area.
10 Q. Which conservation area would that be in?
11 A. 3. The northern part of 3A.
12 Q. Is that a place distinct from what you
13 referred to as the S-9 area?
14 A. Yes. The Holeyland area, certain areas
15 adjacent to some of the canals, and to an extent,
16 even though there was not much cattail there, the
17 data we gathered in the entry and inspection of
18 Everglades National Park. I believe those are the
19 primary areas.
20 Q. Were these various areas that you just
21 described looked at under a single study research
22 project?
23 A. Define for me what you mean by a single
24 study research project.
25 Q. Were these areas that you just described
247
1 chosen specifically to address the evaluation of why
2 cattails are growing where they are growing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What criteria was used in choosing these
5 particular areas?
6 A. First, that cattail was found growing
7 there, and second, it appeared based on information
8 that was available at the time that they were in
9 areas that had either been alleged or identified as
10 nutrient-impacted areas or nutrient enrichment areas
11 and areas which to our knowledge no one had ever
12 contended were enriched by nutrients.
13 Q. Were there two different areas described
14 there, some that were enriched by nutrients or
15 claimed to have been and others that had not been
16 enriched by nutrients or claimed to have been?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Which of the areas you described, and I
19 can go down my list if that helps your recollection,
20 were areas that contained cattail where there had
21 been no suggestion of nutrient enrichment?
22 A. I am sorry, where there had or had not?
23 Q. Had not.
24 Q. Just running down the list, you have the
25 area south of the S-10s, the perimeter southern area
248
1 of WCA-1, the S-9 area, the northern area of 3A, the
2 Holeyland area, certain areas adjacent to canals and
3 area from your access into the Park.
4 A. The areas that at the time we initiated
5 the discussions or investigations that had not been
6 identified as nutrient-enriched areas included the
7 Holeyland, the northern part of 3A, the S-9 area,
8 certain of the areas adjacent to certain canals,
9 certain areas within the Everglades National Park.
10 If I remember the complete list, I think
11 those are the ones.
12 Q. You qualified your answer by prefacing it
13 with the information that you had at the time the
14 areas were chosen.
15 Based upon information that you have
16 today, are any of those areas that you have mentioned
17 still considered unimpacted by nutrients? Has their
18 status changed on any of those?
19 A. Not that I am aware of.
20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.
21 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
22 after which the following proceedings
23 were had)
24 BY MR. NETTLETON:
25 Q. You mentioned that you gathered available
249
1 data on the history of the various areas and you
2 mentioned specifically water quality and water
3 quantity/hydroperiod.
4 Other than data related to water quality
5 and water quantity/hydroperiod, what other type of
6 data did you gather, historical data, for these
7 areas?
8 A. Any previous vegetation maps or vegetation
9 descriptions of the area that we could find, any
10 studies that had been conducted by other scientists
11 in the particular area, any prior government reports
12 or analyses that we could find, various sets of
13 historic aerial photographs, any records relating to
14 use or management or utilization of the area, any
15 records of fire, any -- I don't remember whether I
16 mentioned this already in this list or not -- any
17 historical accounts of the area in terms of
18 vegetation and conditions.
19 I believe that generally covers it.
20 Q. Would I be correct in assuming that you
21 didn't necessarily obtain all of this type of
22 information for each of the areas?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Would I be incorrect in saying that? Does
25 that mean that you did collect this information for
250
1 each of the areas that you previously listed?
2 A. Please state your question again and I
3 will try to make sure I answer it correctly.
4 Q. You have indicated that in gathering
5 historical information concerning the areas, that the
6 data in particular that you collected in that regard
7 included water quality, water quantity or
8 hydroperiod, previous vegetation maps or descriptions
9 of the area concerning vegetation, studies conducted
10 in the area, government reports and analyses
11 concerning the area, historic aerial photographs and
12 records relating to land use and management and
13 records of fire.
14 Do you have such historical data for each
15 of the areas that you previously mentioned that you
16 looked at for this particular task?
17 A. We have some data on most of those
18 categories for most of those sites. Every site would
19 not have the same, all of the same data or have as
20 much data on each of those generic categories.
21 Q. You mentioned that you also took specific
22 data in evaluating why cattails are growing where
23 they are growing. What specific data did you collect
24 other than historical data?
25 A. In certain locations we took water depth
251
1 measurements, in certain instances we took soil cores
2 and in certain instances we took water quality data,
3 we took vegetation description data.
4 That's I believe typically the type of
5 data that we would have collected.
6 Q. You prefaced most of those with, in
7 certain instances. Did you not take water depth
8 measurements, soil cores and water quality data at
9 all of the areas that you previously identified?
10 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form. It
11 is posed as a negative. It is one of those --
12 MR. NETTLETON: So?
13 MR. KOBELINSKI: What will an answer yes
14 mean?
15 BY MR. NETTLETON:
16 Q. Did you take water depth measurements,
17 soil cores and water quality data at each of the
18 areas that you previously described?
19 A. No, we didn't.
20 Q. In attempting to discern what factors
21 appear to be influencing cattail in the specific
22 areas, what factors were you looking at or
23 considering?
24 A. Hydroperiod, nutrients, disturbance.
25 There are subsets of those but I think those
252
1 generally describe it.
2 Q. As a result of your analysis of the data
3 what did you conclude as to what factors appear to be
4 influencing cattail in the various areas?
5 A. We determined that individual areas of
6 cattail occurrence appear to be caused by differing
7 factors, depending on the particular location, or I
8 guess more accurately stated, the different areas
9 appear to have different histories which when
10 considered seem to suggest an explanation of why the
11 cattail occurred there, and that we found that it was
12 necessary to consider those different histories in
13 attempting to understand why cattail was growing in a
14 particular location.
15 Q. When you say that individual areas of
16 cattail occurrence appear to be caused by differing
17 factors depending on the location, by the factors,
18 are you referring to the three general categories you
19 described, hydroperiod, nutrients and disturbance?
20 A. Those are the generic overall factors that
21 appear to be potentially operative in determining
22 whether cattail grows in a particular area or not.
23 That's why I went back and restated that I was using
24 factors two ways. That was confusing.
25 Those are those factors, but also the
253
1 different series of events that occurred in
2 particular areas seem to offer explanations of why
3 the cattail grew in that particular area.
4 Q. Did the histories of those events as you
5 described them involve matters of hydroperiod,
6 nutrients and/or disturbance?
7 A. Yes, they do.
8 Q. When you say the occurrence appears to be
9 caused by differing factors depending on location,
10 are you suggesting that one of those factors may
11 account for cattail in one location and a different
12 one in a different location or do you mean they are
13 all acting in unison in differing degrees at each of
14 the locations?
15 A. I did not mean that one of those factors
16 alone in any particular of the instances that I
17 listed or areas that I listed appeared to cause
18 cattail occurrence in that area.
19 Q. Am I correct then that you concluded that
20 those three factors or generic categories, factors,
21 acted in unison to some degree or another in the
22 causation of cattails to appear where they appeared?
23 A. I wouldn't characterize it as acted in
24 unison.
25 Q. A combination of all three of those
254
1 factors would influence in your opinion the growth of
2 cattail where it is growing? Strike that. Let me
3 try again.
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: It sounded like a
5 hypothetical. I don't think that is what you wanted.
6 Q. Is it your conclusion based upon the
7 analysis you conducted concerning the data collected
8 for the various areas that you looked at that
9 hydroperiod, nutrients and disturbance all play a
10 factor in causing the growth of cattail where it was
11 found growing in those particular areas?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Which of the three factors that have been
14 discussed, hydroperiod, nutrients or disturbance, did
15 you conclude did not play a role in causing cattails
16 to be where they were growing in the particular
17 areas?
18 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form to
19 the extent it assumes uniformity between the various
20 areas.
21 A. Our investigations indicate that you can't
22 point to an area of cattail growth and say, for
23 instance, nutrients caused cattail to grow here.
24 Our investigations indicate that a more
25 plausible explanation would be that there was a
255
1 process or series of events that in all likelihood
2 caused cattail to grow in a particular location.
3 Q. In any of those particular locations did
4 that series of events not include an increase in
5 available nutrients or specifically phosphorus?
6 A. What do you mean by an increase?
7 Q. Over what existed previously in the series
8 of events.
9 A. I am not sure I understand the question.
10 Q. Did you find any location where cattail
11 was growing in which the history of the site or
12 series of events related to that site did not reflect
13 an increase in availability of phosphorus to the
14 plants at that site over time?
15 A. There are sites where we found cattail
16 growing and where we investigated that growth where
17 we were not able to determine based on any of the
18 available data that the area had received an
19 additional and elevated level of phosphorus above
20 what would have been essentially naturally occurring
21 amounts given the history of the area.
22 Q. What particular areas are you referring
23 to?
24 A. As an example, the northern part of 3A.
25 Q. Any other areas?
256
1 A. S-9, Holeyland and perhaps some of the
2 areas of the Everglades National Park.
3 Q. Do any of those areas that you mention
4 involve areas where there appears to be an increase
5 in cattail coverage over time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you agree, Dr. Dennis, that the
8 cattail expansion that has occurred below, south of
9 the S-10 structures and based upon your analysis of
10 the history of the area and so forth, would you agree
11 that the expansion of cattails in that area is caused
12 in part by the inflow of phosphorus through the S-10
13 structures?
14 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form to
15 the extent it does not give a particular time frame
16 nor do you define what you mean by expansion.
17 Go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
19 question, please.
20 MR. NETTLETON: Let me just rephrase it.
21 BY MR. NETTLETON:
22 Q. Based upon the analysis of the data you
23 collected with regard to the area south of the S-10
24 structures in WCA-2A, do you believe that the
25 cattails, the extent of cattails that currently exist
257
1 in that area were caused or contributed to in part by
2 the phosphorus entering that area in the surface
3 water coming through the S-10 structures?
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will object to the form
5 to the extent it is compound.
6 Go ahead.
7 A. It is certainly compound.
8 I am not aware of any studies or data
9 which demonstrate a cause and effect relationship
10 among or between the occurrence of cattail south of
11 the 10 structures directly related to the input of
12 phosphorus into that area.
13 Q. That wasn't my question. My question is
14 based upon the data that you collected, historical
15 and anything you collected in the field in the area
16 south of the S-10 structures, in your opinion as a
17 scientist do you believe that the cattails that exist
18 south of the S-10 structures were caused in part by
19 the phosphorus entering the system through the S-10
20 structures.
21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection. Are you
22 talking about geographic extent?
23 MR. NETTLETON: No.
24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.
25 A. I have no information that we have
258
1 developed in any of our studies that indicate that
2 phosphorus entering in the surface water into that
3 area caused cattail to occur in that area.
4 Q. Do you have no information which suggests
5 that phosphorus entering through the S-10 structures
6 is a contributing cause to the cattails existing
7 below the S-10 structures?
8 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will object to the form
9 of the question to the extent it is asking if he has
10 no information.
11 MR. NETTLETON: Those were his words.
12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Then it is asked and
13 answered.
14 THE WITNESS: Would you read that question
15 back again, please.
16 (The question referred to was
17 thereupon read by the reporter
18 as above recorded)
19 A. It would appear that to a degree the
20 cattails are growing in well fertilized conditions.
21 BY MR. NETTLETON:
22 Q. Is it your opinion, Dr. Dennis, that based
23 upon the data you have reviewed concerning the area
24 south of the S-10 structures that phosphorus entering
25 through the S-10 structures in the surface water has
259
1 not played a role in the growth or expansion of the
2 cattails in that area over time?
3 A. It appears --
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of
5 the question to the extent by growth and expansion do
6 you mean again geographic or are you talking about
7 growth in the height of the plants? It is ambiguous.
8 Go ahead.
9 MR. NETTLETON: Geographic.
10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Thank you.
11 A. Perhaps I was not understanding your
12 question. Are you differentiating between growth and
13 expansion as two different things or are you using
14 those as synonyms for the same phenomenon?
15 Q. How did you understand it?
16 A. I understood it as being two separate
17 questions.
18 Q. I mean it either/or.
19 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the ambiguity
20 of the question.
21 A. I certainty don't understand that.
22 MR. NETTLETON: Can you read back the
23 question again.
24 (The question referred to was
25 thereupon read by the reporter
260
1 as above recorded)
2 MR. NETTLETON: Your objection is
3 preserved.
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Thank you.
5 A. Is that the question?
6 BY MR. NETTLETON:
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. From the data that I have either developed
9 or reviewed it would appear that the phosphorus
10 levels in the water have affected the growth of
11 cattail in that area, and by that I mean the stature,
12 height, vigor.
13 Q. Does it include density?
14 A. If you have a larger plant, then it would
15 take up more space. I don't know that it necessarily
16 increases the density per se. In fact, typically the
17 density of cattail per unit area would probably be
18 less, depending on the size and structure of the
19 cattail plant.
20 Q. Aside from the density question, your
21 definition of growth as you define it, does that mean
22 you answered yes or no?
23 A. That means I answered that part of the
24 question as I answered that part of the question.
25 MR. NETTLETON: Can you go back and read
261
1 the question again, the original question you read
2 before.
3 (The portion referred to was
4 thereupon read by the reporter
5 as above recorded)
6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Can you read back his
7 answer.
8 (The portion referred to was
9 thereupon read by the reporter
10 as above recorded)
11 BY MR. NETTLETON:
12 Q. Is it your opinion, Dr. Dennis, that based
13 upon the data you have reviewed that phosphorus
14 entering through the S-10 structures in the surface
15 water has not contributed to the expansion
16 geographically of the cattail in Area 2A south of the
17 S-10 structures?
18 A. I don't believe it has.
19 Q. On what do you base that opinion?
20 A. Essentially the geographic extent of
21 cattail in that area over time and the fact that the
22 geographic extent of cattail in that area has at
23 various points in time expanded and contracted.
24 Q. Any other information you are relying on?
25 A. Studies conducted by others which did not
262
1 demonstrate a cause and effect relationship between
2 phosphorus levels in the water entering that area and
3 the area and extent of cattail in that general area.
4 Q. Any other particular information you are
5 relying on?
6 A. As I sit here at this particular time,
7 that's generally what I can remember.
8 MR. NETTLETON: This sounds like a good
9 breaking point.
10 (Witness excused)
11 (Thereupon, at 6:20 p.m.,
12 the deposition was adjourned)
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263
1 I, WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS, do hereby certify
2 that I have read the foregoing depostion and that the
3 same is a true and accurate transcript of my
4 testimony, except for attached amendments, if any.
5
6
7
8 _______________________________
9
10
11
12
13 The signature above of WILLIAM MICHAEL
14 DENNIS was subscribed and sworn to before me this _______
15 day of , 1994. ___________
16
17
18
19
20 _______________________________
21 Notary Public
22 My commission expires
23
24
25
264
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 The State of Florida )
4 County of Dade )
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, certify that
7 WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS personally appeared before me
8 and was duly sworn.
9
10 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
11 23rd day of March, 1994.
12
13
14
15 ________________________________
16 RICHARD BURSKY, CM, RPR
17 Notary Public - State of Florida
18 My Commission No. CC 030636
19 Expires: July 17, 1994
20
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22
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265
1 CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF DADE )
3
I, Richard Bursky, a Registered
4 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that I was
authorized to and did report said deposition in
5 stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered
from 102 to 262, inclusive, are a true and correct
6 transcription of my shorthand notes of said
deposition.
7
I further certify that I am not an
8 attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel
9 connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
10
The foregoing certification of this
11 transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the
same by any means unless under the direct control
12 and/or direction of the certifying reporter.
13 Dated this 23rd day of March, 1994.
14
_______________________
15 Richard Bursky, CM, RPR
16 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF DADE )
17
The foregoing certificate was acknowledged
18 before me this 23rd day of March, 1994,
by Richard Bursky, who is personally known to me.
19
20 _________________________
BARNET I. ABRAMOWITZ
21 Notary Public - State of Florida
My Commission No. CC 097881
22 Expires: April 10, 1995
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