STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATION HEARINGS
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE
OF FLORIDA, A FLORIDA AGRICULTURAL
COOPERATIVE MARKETING ASSOCIATION, CASE NOs. 92-3038
ROTH FARMS, INC., AND WEDGWORTH 92-3039
FARMS, INC., 92-3040
and
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.,
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION;
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,
and
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE
ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS,
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and
HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,
Petitioners,
vs.
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT, an AGENCY of the STATE
OF FLORIDA,
Respondent,
and
MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA
the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and
FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL
REGULATION, THE FLORIDA WILDLIFE
FEDERATION, the FLORIDA AUDUBON
SOCIETY, and the SIERA CLUB,
Intervenors.
-------------------------------------------/
DEPOSITION OF JOHN O. SCHLECHTER
2
1 One Clearlake Center
Suite 1403
2 West Palm Beach, Florida
November 12, 1992
3 9:00 o'clock P.M.
4
5
APPEARANCES:
6
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
7 ENVIRONMENT & NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION
BY: GEOFFREY GARVER, ESQUIRE
8 appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff.
9 OERTEL, HOFFMAN, FERNANDEZ & COLE, P.A.,
BY: KENNETH F. HOFFMAN, ESQUIRE
10 appearing on behalf of Fruit & Vegetable
Association.
11
PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A.,
12 BY: RICHARD RUSSELL, ESQUIRE
appearing on behalf of Sugar Cane League.
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3
1 The deposition of JOHN O. SCHLECHTER, a witness
2 of lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery as
3 evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the United
4 States District Court, Southern District of Florida,
5 pursuant to notice, before Brenda Weinerth, Notary Public
6 in and for the State of Florida at Large, at the time and
7 place aforesaid.
8 --------------------
9 I N D E X
10 WITNESS
11 JOHN O. SCHLECHTER
12 Direct Examination by Mr. Garver 3
13 E X H I B I T S
14 SCHLECHTER FOR IDENTIFICATION
15 No. Page
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4
1 THEREUPON:
2 JOHN O. SCHLECHTER
3 Was called as a witness by the Plaintiff having been first
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. GARVER:
7 Q Sir, please, state your name for the record
8 and spell your last name?
9 A My name is John O. Schlechter.
10 Q Mr. Schlechter, my name is Jeff Garver. I am
11 an attorney with the Department of Justice and I represent
12 the United States in this deposition. Have you ever had
13 your deposition taken before?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. GARVER: You have. Before we get going I
16 want to state for the record that the United States
17 noticed simultaneously depositions at this time for
18 Mr. Schlechter and Mr. Pope. We have here in this
19 room Mr. Schlechter and Mr. Pope. Mr. Ken Hoffman
20 on behalf of those witnesses and also Richard
21 Russell of Peeples, Earl & Blank on behalf of Sugar
22 Cane League, et. al. while the United States has
23 agreed to conduct the depositions of Mr. Schlechter
24 and Mr. Pope sequentially the United States does not
25 waive any future right it may have to conduct
5
1 simultaneous depositions for any participating party
2 as may be needed to complete discover in this
3 matter. Mr. Hoffman, I would propose that we
4 preserve all objections accept as to form at this
5 time.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I have the right to do
7 that. The Rules of Civil Procedure of Florida allow
8 me to preserve objections other than those dealing
9 with form or they can not be corrected otherwise,
10 but sometimes I pop off objections and if I do so I
11 will make them short and sweet.
12 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, I'm going to
13 be asking you a series of questions. I simply ask that you
14 give me your honest and complete answers to those questions
15 and if you don't understand any question I ask you, please
16 let me know and I will try to rephrase it and put it in a
17 better way. I will probably be asking you about a lot of
18 things that you know more about then I do and please feel
19 free to correct me if I state things in a way that doesn't
20 make sense.
21 Ms. Court Reporter, can you mark this as
22 Schlechter Exhibit Number one.
23 (Thereupon, Schlechter Exhibit 1 was marked
24 for identification by the court reporter.)
25 Q Mr. Schlechter, I have handed you what has
6
1 been marked as Schlechter Exhibit Number 1. Do you
2 recognize this document?
3 A Yes, I recognize it as a document. I assume
4 it is one that I have a like copy of.
5 Q So, have you reviewed the notice of deposition
6 that was provided with respect to this deposition?
7 A Say that again.
8 Q Have you reviewed this document before?
9 A I believe so, yes.
10 Q On pages 5 and 6 of this document there is a
11 list of documents to be produced in connection with this
12 deposition, have you provided all the documents that
13 respond to that list of documents?
14 A To the best of my understanding, yes.
15 Q Do you have any additional documents to
16 provide today in connection with that list?
17 A Not that I know of.
18 Q So, you didn't bring any additional documents
19 with you?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Mr. Schlechter, what do you understand to be
22 the areas on which you will be testifying at a final
23 hearing in this matter?
24 A That as I understand it, it's an economic
25 hardship and that I would be in an adversarial position
7
1 under the way it is presently written and whatever it took
2 to implement it.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Explain what that means.
4 THE WITNESS: As being economically impacted
5 by this that if it could have been mitigated or
6 changed in a manner that would not be so non
7 adversely effecting. That was the only thing. As I
8 presently understand it, it does economically impact
9 me.
10 Q (By Mr. Garver) When you say it, are you
11 referring to the Everglades Swim Plan?
12 A Right, and it's different ramifications.
13 Q Mr. Schlechter, where do you live?
14 A In Belle Glade.
15 Q How long have you lived in Belle Glade?
16 A Almost continually for six or seven years.
17 Q Were you born in or around Belle Glade?
18 A My parents resided in Belle Glade. I was born
19 in West Palm Beach.
20 Q So, you have lived in Belle Glade pretty much
21 all of your life; is that right?
22 A Except when I went to college.
23 Q Where did you go to college?
24 A The University of Florida.
25 Q What did you study?
8
1 A Agriculture.
2 Q There was a major course of study called
3 agriculture?
4 A There are different colleges at the University
5 of Florida. Agriculture is one of them. My graduates
6 degree -- My degree is in the School of Agriculture with
7 engineering. They had a curriculum labeled engineering
8 under that school.
9 Q What types of course work did you take in that
10 degree?
11 A Those normally associated with a degree in
12 Bachelor of Science and Agricultural Engineering under
13 the -- it's 30 years, it's 30 some years ago.
14 Q Can you remember some of the courses?
15 A Physics, math, a little bit of Chemistry,
16 fertilizers, just normal stuff.
17 Q Where do you work at the present time?
18 A I'm self-employed.
19 Q Is your self-employment incorporated in any
20 manner?
21 A I own W.E. Schlechter & Sons Inc., yes.
22 Q And what is W.E. Schlechter & Sons
23 Incorporated?
24 A A farming corporation.
25 Q I want to ask I don't mean to make you
9
1 uncomfortable. It's important for the transcript here that
2 I finish my questions even if you understand where I am
3 going.
4 How long have you been self-employed?
5 A Right at 30 years.
6 Q Did you commence self-employment immediately
7 after college?
8 A No.
9 Q When?
10 A I worked for my father. I graduated in '58.
11 Worked for my father for five years. He retired and I
12 incorporated, bought some land, went through a diaster and
13 somehow I survived for 30 years.
14 Q What diaster are you referring to?
15 A A storm. The economic realities of living, I
16 suppose you say.
17 Q When was this storm?
18 A In '63, '64, I think. A small storm.
19 Q And what happened that was disastrous in that
20 storm?
21 A I lost my crops.
22 Q What happened to destroy your crops?
23 A Four inches of rain fell in about an hour and
24 a half.
25 Q Your crops were flooded; is that correct?
10
1 A That's right.
2 Q Other than the college courses that you
3 mentioned earlier, have you taken since college any courses
4 or seminars?
5 A Not on a formal basis, no.
6 Q Have you taken any on an informal basis?
7 A Life itself is a course. When you adjust and
8 survive for 30 years, I should have a doctorate degree. I
9 don't mean to be facetious, I am deadly serious.
10 Q I am not trying to --
11 A When you have to adjust the pretzels so you
12 have some left you have done something right.
13 Q I think that was a good answer, Mr.
14 Schlechter. I'm sure you learned a lot in 30 years.
15 A I went to school we had a slide ruler for
16 calculations and now you have a computer. I would say that
17 is a big difference, but you still come up with the same
18 number.
19 Q Have you done any work at any instruction or
20 seminars through Agricultural Extension Services that sort
21 of thing since college?
22 A No. I do a lot of reading probably, the
23 published information this type of stuff for application.
24 But other than that, no.
25 Q Mr. Schlechter, have you read the March 13,
11
1 1992 Everglades Swim Plan?
2 A When?
3 Q March 13th of '92. It's the Swim Plan that is
4 being challenged in this?
5 A Yes, I have read several. They kind of run
6 together in my mind to be honest with you and per se this
7 document or that document, no, but the implementation of a
8 hypothetical situation -- Is that the one that enumerates
9 80 some uncontested accusations?
10 Q I think you may be referring to one of the
11 petitions challenging the plan. I'm talking --
12 A This is the one that incorporates the
13 Governor's statements that these are unfinished facts -
14 asinine statements that are supposed to be considered
15 intelligent.
16 Q I am not sure where this list you're referring
17 to. Can you try to remember.
18 A I don't remember. It was just in one of the
19 suits and you're probably very more familiar with them then
20 me. These are the type of things that make me very
21 uncomfortable.
22 Q With respect to the Swim Plan itself that's
23 been written by the South Florida Water Management
24 District, have you read, do you recall reading specifically
25 that document?
12
1 A Probably I have, yes, but I'm not verbatim
2 familiar with it, no.
3 Q And there were also several drafts that
4 proceeded the final draft. Going back I think possibly to
5 1989?
6 A Yes, I saw you at several of the hearings, the
7 workshop hearings, and me being part of CARE were there and
8 certain things we were okay to.
9 Q Have you or has anyone on your behalf ever
10 sent any comments to EAA on the draft of the Everglades
11 Swim Plan to the South Florida Management District?
12 A I voiced concerns personally at their workshop
13 sessions, but other than that as far as directly from W.E.
14 Schlechter & Sons, Inc., no.
15 Q On what occasion have you voiced concerns?
16 A Several of the workshops that I attended.
17 Q Do you recall what the nature of the workshops
18 were?
19 A No, I don't. Implementation of it and when
20 they try to formulate the Rule.
21 Q When you mention the Rule, are you talking
22 about the BMP Rule that was passed in the spring?
23 A Part of that, yes, that would be implemented,
24 yes.
25 Q Have you been to any workshops for other
13
1 actions that the Water Management District was proposing
2 other than for the BMP Rule?
3 A I really don't remember.
4 Q Have you been to any of the workshops that the
5 South Florida Water Management District Board has held with
6 respect to the Everglades Swim Plan itself?
7 A I believe I have, yes. The specific dates, I
8 do not know.
9 Q Do you recall any of the comments or concerns
10 that you voiced with respect to the Rule?
11 A Not really.
12 Q You didn't file a formal challenge to the
13 Rule, did you?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you still have concerns with respect to the
16 Rule?
17 A I would doubt that anybody that would be in my
18 position would have some reservations or concerns.
19 Especially, looking at the way it's written and how it's
20 substantiated or collaborated. I think if you were in the
21 position you would be concerned too.
22 Q We're still just talking about the Rule when
23 you say that; is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When was W.E. Schlechter & Son, Incorporated?
14
1 A I believe in the fall of '63.
2 Q And who's W.E. Schlechter?
3 A He was my father.
4 Q How long has the Schlechter family farmed in
5 the Everglades Agricultural area?
6 A Early 20's, late teens.
7 Q Did your father begin the farm?
8 A My grandfather farmed there in the late teens
9 and early 20's.
10 Q What crops does W.E. Schlechter & Sons grow?
11 A It varies, but beans, corns, leaf stuff, cane.
12 We have had celery.
13 Q Is that the same types of crops that the
14 Schlechter family has been farming since --
15 A It probably varied originally when we started.
16 Probably beans were the big crop.
17 Q Do you have any crop now that you would call
18 the big crop that you grow?
19 A Not really.
20 Q How much land does Schlechter Incorporated
21 farm?
22 A Somewhere around one thousand acres.
23 Q Is that leased land or land that the
24 corporation owns?
25 A They lease a little bit of land, I mean, they
15
1 own a little bit of land, but they lease most of it.
2 Q How much land does the corporation own?
3 A I think sixty acres or in that neighborhood.
4 Q So, the remainder up to one thousand acres or
5 so many would be leased land; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I make sure this is W.E.
8 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated; is that what your
9 asking?
10 MR. GARVER: Yes.
11 Q (By Mr. Garver) Did W.E. Schlechter & Sons
12 Inc. ever own more land then it owns now?
13 A No. In fact, they own less. The 60 acres was
14 just acquired in the last year or so and some changing
15 around.
16 Q When did W.E. Schlechter & Sons begin leasing
17 land for farming in the EAA?
18 A Let me back up. All right. I am not sure
19 thirty years ago is a long time and I don't have the
20 document. When I had a major financial difficulty in '63,
21 '64, and '65 where W.E. Schlechter & Sons owned land I'm
22 really not sure, but because of the pressure we had to
23 liquidate some land and they could have owned it, but since
24 that time they haven't owned it, from that period of time.
25 Q Is the land that you leased the same from year
16
1 to year or has it varied?
2 A It varies.
3 Q How long are the leases that you have on the
4 land that you farm?
5 A Some of them are five years or seven years.
6 Some of them are year to year or crop to crop.
7 Q I think I should explain when I say, in light
8 of Mr. Hoffman's comments, when I say you, I'm referring
9 primarily to W.E. Schlechter & Sons.
10 A That is the way I'm understanding it, W.E.
11 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated, that is my understanding.
12 Q Do you know how many leases W.E. Schlechter &
13 Sons currently has?
14 A I think two written and two by conveyance -
15 that they have with conveyance or one with conveyance.
16 Q So, is that three all together then?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How does the lease by conveyance work?
19 A They rent some land from me personally and
20 it's my conveyance to make the land available as I rotate
21 cane.
22 Q How many acres do you lease by conveyance
23 under that?
24 A In the neighborhood of seven hundred acres.
25 Q And the two other leases you have, what kind
17
1 of leases are those?
2 A They are like five year leases. I think
3 one -- I believe both of them are about five year leases.
4 Q Where's the land that you, W.E. Schlechter,
5 currently farms located in the EAA?
6 A You've got a chart.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: This is a document that you got.
8 I think you sent it to us or Ms. Ponzoli. Have you
9 seen that?
10 MR. GARVER: I think I'll move on.
11 Q (By Mr. Garver) What types of crops are you
12 currently growing?
13 A The same ones that I mentioned earlier. It
14 varies. Today, what's growing today? Corn, leaf stuff,
15 and cane.
16 Q When you say leaf stuff, what are you
17 referring to?
18 A The salad crops; endive, romaine, red lettuce,
19 iceberg lettuce, beets, Chinese cabbage, you know, the
20 multitude, but you know we're just a little redneck farm.
21 Q Is there a growing season associated with the
22 crops?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What is the growing season?
25 A Generally, planting it in August and usually
18
1 finished by the first of June.
2 Q Would that be true for all the crops that you
3 grow?
4 A With cane you rotate and you and I both
5 know --
6 Q And how does the cane growing rotations work?
7 A Since, it's annual it grows annually. The
8 rest of them would be sequential from the time their
9 planted from the date of maturity.
10 Q For crops other than sugar cane, do you
11 typically get more than one cultivation per year?
12 A Harvesting per year, yes. Cultivating you do
13 that for weed control.
14 Q This is probably one of those instances I'm
15 getting my terms mixed up. Make sure I am understanding
16 what you are saying. I am glad you corrected me.
17 How many harvests do you get per growing
18 season for the different crops you grow?
19 A Twenty-two, twenty-three depending on the
20 crops. Some crops are 60-day maturity. Some of them grow
21 through the winter some of them don't and then the leaf
22 crops would be when you vacate. So, there could be as much
23 as three crops.
24 Q For each crop harvest, from the preparation of
25 the soil through the harvest, what kind of farming
19
1 operations are required?
2 A You plant, you cultivate, and you harvest and
3 spray, I suppose it to be. I guess any crop would follow
4 in that type of situation.
5 Q What is entailed before you actually plant the
6 crop to the soil preparation?
7 A Somehow the land has to be prepared for
8 harvest whether it's maintained through disks or you disk
9 down and plow whatever you have to do to make a seed bed
10 and it varies with different things depending on the
11 situation you're in.
12 Q Well, what kind of factors would you take into
13 account in considering how to prepare?
14 A Most people would consider a seed bed to be
15 black, fluffy, loose, in that kind of condition.
16 Q And what sort of things would you do to get
17 the soil?
18 A Either plow or disk or ripping.
19 Q What is ripping?
20 A Metal teeth put down in the ground to loosen
21 it up and aerate it or whatever you wish to call it.
22 Q And after you plant a crop, what kind of
23 operations are necessary for cultivating the crop before
24 harvesting?
25 A You cultivate it whether you use a herbicide
20
1 to cultivate it or you use mechanical cultivation whatever
2 it takes to control the weeds you do that to the best of
3 your ability.
4 Q When would you use herbicide and when would
5 you use mechanical cultivation?
6 A I suppose it's a judgment call on what you
7 think would do the best job.
8 Q What sort of factors go into that judgment
9 call?
10 A The weather, the location, the crop and the
11 weeds that are there.
12 Q And what type of situation would you decide to
13 use a herbicide or whether it would be a mechanical
14 cultivation?
15 A A lot of time with the leafy crops we use
16 herbicides and sometimes young cane we use herbicides.
17 Then, if the weeds are larger, we use mechanical
18 cultivation.
19 Q What kind of herbicides do you use?
20 A Atrazine is the only one that comes to mind
21 right off.
22 Q How is atrazine applied?
23 A Ground. A liquid.
24 Q It's a liquid and sprayed from the ground?
25 A Yes.
21
1 Q Is that using trucks or how exactly is that
2 done?
3 A A spray cart or you could do it by air, but
4 the result is basically the same thing. We are so small
5 most of ours is done by ground.
6 Q What are the fertilizer requirements for the
7 various crops that you grow?
8 A They vary. And we generally use the criteria
9 of the IFIS a local station of ours after they run a soil
10 analysis. You got some copies.
11 (Whereupon, Schlechter Exhibit No. 2 was
12 marked for Identification by the Court Reporter.)
13 Q Mr. Schlechter, I have handed you a copy of
14 what's been marked as Schlechter Number 2. You were just
15 referring to a page in here?
16 A The one that says Agricultural Research and
17 Education Center Results and Recommendations and the result
18 of their soil and sampling.
19 Q Could you turn to the one -- to the first of
20 these two Agricultural Research and Education Center
21 documents. There is one that has a signature that says
22 1/17/85 on it. I just want to try and understand what's
23 going on in this. Can you explain the different columns?
24 A The one in the block is enumerations. The
25 next is -- Well, the first is their sample. The first
22
1 column is their sample.
2 Q In the first column, it's their sample?
3 A Their sample. It doesn't say the lab number.
4 Q It's just the designation they have given to a
5 sample of soil taken from land farming?
6 A A sample. Their enumeration of a sample we
7 took into them as they prepared to run a lab analysis,
8 that's that first column. The next one would reflect our
9 field number. The next would be the texture of the mud.
10 The next would be the pH of the soil. Next phosphorus,
11 magnesium, the crop, and then the next is the
12 recommendation and as you see down at the bottom Ken Shuler
13 signed that. He is an extension agent with the Palm Beach
14 Extension Service.
15 Q Now, look at this document I see that under
16 several of these recommended columns. There is a
17 designation zero, does that indicate they recommend no use
18 of fertilizer on those?
19 A That's right. You also see the time of year
20 that is.
21 Q What time of year?
22 A January 15, 1985.
23 Q On the second one of these IFIS reports it has
24 a telephone number near the top of the page handwritten and
25 that appears not to have a recommendation?
23
1 A I think that's where we faxed it too.
2 Q That's my number. I just noted that for
3 identification it appears that there are no recommendations
4 on it?
5 A You notice that is September which would have
6 been the starting of the season and we couldn't determine
7 what crop that we wanted to know the availability of the
8 fertilizer of the fertility of the soil. Also you notice
9 those are different numbers.
10 Q What are different numbers?
11 A The availability of the nutrients.
12 Q I am not sure where I am looking on here to
13 find out what numbers you are referring to. Under the soil
14 test values?
15 A Yes.
16 Q These two reports refer to the same locations?
17 A If you see the field number, it would be the
18 same fields, yes.
19 Q Why would the numbers there be different?
20 A That's what you would expect when you started,
21 you would expect a lower fertility. When you are in the
22 middle of a season you already applied fertilizer. In
23 other words, we were not over fertilizing as some of the
24 literary glimpses of the news that I read.
25 Q I am not sure I've seen those. What have you
24
1 read that is saying that you over fertilized?
2 A I'm a nasty guy.
3 Q Would this second IFIS report that we're
4 looking at, this soil analysis, was done before planting or
5 before any fertilization; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And on the basis of this report, did you make
8 a decision to apply fertilizer?
9 A This is like six years ago and I really can't
10 remember. I suspect we adjusted it based on what was
11 there, yes, but I don't have the supporting material to say
12 what we did do. I put that in there to primarily show you.
13 I think we told you that is in our permit application to
14 show them we were utilizing analysis of soil and adjusting
15 application as according.
16 Q There is another set of documents in here
17 entitled produced by A & L Southern Agricultural
18 Laboratories.
19 A You see there are different type numbers.
20 There is an indication beside them how they would correlate
21 to a standard and then the numbers that you see on the
22 front page are an agronomist's interpretation of what
23 should be there and what he would recommend.
24 Q The first page you're referring to the several
25 pages that have handwritten --
25
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is the soil analysis that is reflected hereby
3 A & L Southern, the same generally as the report, the soil
4 tests that were done by IFIS and those other reports?
5 A As I understand it they use different types of
6 retraction purposes but they ultimately come up with the
7 same thing. I'm not an agronomist. That's how I
8 understand it and that's what I have been told.
9 Q What types of fertilizers do you use?
10 A What do you mean by types?
11 Q What fertilizers do you use?
12 A As far as I understand your question, we use
13 two types, a liquid and we use a dry. The materials within
14 those is based on recommendation. Other than that, I
15 wouldn't know.
16 Q What types of elements or compounds in the
17 soil are you trying to increase by use of fertilizers?
18 A Are you familiar with soil fertility levels at
19 all?
20 Q I'm afraid I can't. I'm afraid this is an
21 unfair situation. Mr. Schlechter, I only get to answer --
22 I am sorry if I ask some questions that may seem obvious.
23 A These are what we are testing for and if it's
24 low in these we are going to try to bring those up. They
25 have a bracket that they try to put, I believe, if you were
26
1 to depose Ken Shuler he would say this is what I recommend,
2 it's this. But you have three majors and then you have
3 some minors based on what he thinks or a rule of thumb
4 which supposedly has been documented by IFIS.
5 Q What are the three majors?
6 A N, P, and K.
7 Q Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Are
8 there different fertilizers for phosphorus, nitrogen and
9 potassium, and for the minor elements that you mentioned?
10 A What I understand you to say is there
11 different sources. I'm not an agronomist, but I understand
12 there are different sources or different combinations that
13 you need to get that one. We are an organic soil and we
14 generally apply very little nitrogen otherwise we do based
15 on profile that the experience station has established.
16 Q How do you apply fertilizer to your crops?
17 A I understand you to ask me where do I apply
18 fertilizer. Do I apply it by the crop or broadcast it? I
19 do some of both that is my understanding of the different
20 applications on the fertilizer. Whether we put it under
21 the ground on different crops, we do it different ways. We
22 are moving under our BMP's to be exclusively under a banded
23 application with the hypothetical situation that it takes
24 less for fertilizer to acquire that. I think the jury is
25 still out on that, but we are moving that way.
27
1 Q Why do you believe the jury is still out on
2 and that question?
3 A Such things as phytotoxicity. The plants with
4 certain fertilizers, the chance of making an error in
5 proximity to the root zone, a poor crop. I mean, these are
6 things that we are working on, but I don't believe that has
7 been shown.
8 Q What is phytotoxicity?
9 A A phytotoxicity is exemplified by the plants
10 whether it be chlorotic or dying back or poor yield or poor
11 growth.
12 Q Is that a toxicity that is caused by the
13 fertilizer?
14 A It could be caused by the fertilizer, yes. It
15 could be, you know, any number of things and again we are
16 talking about something that I know nothing about.
17 Q I'm trying to understand. Is there a question
18 that or possibility that banded fertilization will increase
19 phytotoxicity?
20 A There is a question of hot shots or mechanical
21 realities of soil not being homogenous in the sense they
22 might have a rock in it or might be where the man puts the
23 implement down and he may move it. There is no room for
24 error if you put it in band. I am familiar with the
25 condition or location of liquid fertilizer that decreased a
28
1 crop about 30 percent which was at that time of harvest
2 which was a bunch of money so I know it happens.
3 Q Now, is it attributed to using banded
4 fertilization?
5 A Absolutely. No question. In a hypothetical
6 situation, you can go and pick the row out.
7 Q How is fertilizer applied in banded
8 fertilization?
9 A It's put in a bag and then you determine
10 whether you want it by the crop or close proximity to the
11 crop.
12 Q In a band that means it is put in a specific
13 strip on the soil rather than applied evenly over the
14 entire soil; is that correct?
15 A Right, sure.
16 Q And the problem that you just described with a
17 30 percent crop lost, what exactly went wrong with banded
18 fertilization that resulted in that, if you know?
19 A The band application moved over about three
20 inches and got right on the road and just wiped it out.
21 Q When banded fertilization is used, when is the
22 fertilizer applied?
23 A The simplest answer is when you plant it and
24 it is banded you put it in then. If it's a growing crop
25 you grow it. And a banded -- it's not a clear question in
29
1 my understanding.
2 Q In terms of the quantity of fertilizer that is
3 applied, is there any generalization you can make in terms
4 of the comparison between broadcasting and banded
5 fertilization?
6 A My personal preference on banded is for the
7 convenience and also you can put more fertilizer there. In
8 my mind, and again we are talking about my mind, is
9 available to the crop when you stop fertilizer. When you
10 move the soil, you move some of the fertilizer over to the
11 crop as opposed to concentrating in an area that could be
12 detrimental to the root development.
13 Q What's that say in the terms of the quantity
14 of fertilizer you're employing?
15 A I don't think you can band as much as you can
16 broadcast.
17 Q Is that the same as saying when you band you
18 use less fertilizer then when you broadcast?
19 A I think you probably would. You would
20 broadcast a heavily application. We are talking about my
21 understanding and nobody has tested me.
22 Q What do you mean nobody has tested you? They
23 haven't done soil?
24 A No, but they don't pay my bills. When I pass
25 my test, I pay my bills. I am my judge. I am moving it to
30
1 another area that somebody else will be judging me. I have
2 to recognize that this is part of what we are discussing
3 here today.
4 Q When you say you're moving into an area where
5 somebody else will be judging you, who are you referring
6 to?
7 A I guess, I'm referring to you. I think you're
8 the strongest motivater of what is going on there and that
9 is a political reality instead of a scientific realty in my
10 understanding.
11 Q In your experience in farming in the EAA have
12 you noticed any subsidence in the land that W.E. Schlechter
13 has farmed?
14 A What is subsidence?
15 Q Have you noticed any loss of soil or
16 compression of soil or lowering of elevation of the soil?
17 A There is a difference in elevation. I am
18 familiar with the difference in the elevation of the soil.
19 What constituted it, I am not really sure.
20 Q I understand there is a lot of questions about
21 that.
22 What in particular have you noticed in terms
23 of the elevation of soil?
24 A Well, that it's lower. That there is from the
25 bedrock to the top of the soil is lower than it was 20, 30
31
1 years ago.
2 Q Do you know roughly what the difference in
3 elevation is?
4 A I wouldn't. It's a significant amount.
5 Q Would it be under five feet or can you give a
6 rough --
7 A I don't know.
8 Q -- estimate that way?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q More than one foot?
11 MR. RUSSELL: It has been asked and answered.
12 THE WITNESS: I am not being evasive, I don't
13 know.
14 Q (By Mr. Garver) Do you have any belief as to
15 what's caused the elevation of the soil to go down?
16 A I just don't know.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: I think it was asked and answer.
18 Go ahead, if you have an answer.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't really know.
20 Q (By Mr. Garver) Is W.E. Schlechter & Sons in
21 the Florida Fruit & Vegetable Association?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What is the Florida Fruit & Vegetable
24 Association?
25 A A group of people with light background
32
1 seeking to go together to maximize their like interest in
2 whatever they might be.
3 Q Do you know when the Florida Fruit & Vegetable
4 Association was formed?
5 A No, I don't.
6 Q How long has W.E. Schlechter & Sons been
7 formed?
8 A I am not being evasive, but I don't know.
9 Q I appreciate it. I don't know is a perfectly
10 fine answer.
11 A One time we were with them and we stopped
12 because I had a different point of view and I don't
13 remember when we went back with them.
14 Q What was the nature of that disagreement?
15 A I didn't have any money.
16 Q And they required you to pay money for
17 membership?
18 A I was getting workmen's compensation through
19 them and I couldn't pay my bills and so we had to work out
20 a different deal and it was with different people. I did
21 pay my bills.
22 Q What types of services does the Florida Fruit
23 & Vegetable Association provide for members you just
24 mentioned, worker's compensation?
25 A I think a self insurance fund and I think they
33
1 articulate agriculture on a national level which they are
2 affected for.
3 Q Other than lobbying and insuring, are there
4 any other services they provide?
5 A Some of the marketing orders they are the
6 vehicle for it. And I don't remember if they were the
7 vehicle for corn marketing order or not, which we were a
8 part of.
9 Q What would be different about the marketing
10 than traditional marketing?
11 A Well, normally in our area we are familiar
12 with marketing, you know, on a pack analysis level opposed
13 to a state level where you are a controlled market.
14 Q What exactly does the Florida Fruit &
15 Vegetable Association do to facilitate marketing for its
16 farmers?
17 A Again, I'm talking about what I know,
18 absolutely about what I observed. They apparently have the
19 facility to do it. I don't know about the research of what
20 holds a bus up.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: What holds the bus up? I have
22 to catch all these things.
23 Q (By Mr. Garver) What is required for a
24 membership in the Florida Fruit & Vegetable Association?
25 A Dues, based on value of whatever commodities
34
1 that you have and pay dues on.
2 Q Do you know who the largest members of Florida
3 Fruit & Vegetable Association are?
4 A No, sir, I don't.
5 Q Is W.E. Schlechter & Sons a member of any
6 other agricultural organization?
7 A I am sure they are, but none come to mind at
8 this point.
9 Q Are you a member of the Florida Sugar Cane
10 Growers Co-op in Florida?
11 A Sugar Cane Growers Co-op is a member of Sugar
12 Cane League. W.E. Schlechter is a member, yes.
13 Q And do you rely on either the Florida Sugar
14 Cane League or Sugar Cane Co-op for marketing your sugar
15 cane?
16 A Sugar Cane Growers markets my sugar cane just
17 as Pioneer Growers markets my vegetables.
18 Q What is pioneer, I didn't catch the name?
19 A Pioneer is a Co-op in the vegetable arena like
20 Sugar Cane Growers are in the sugar industry.
21 Q What services does Pioneer --
22 A Marketing.
23 Q What permits are required by W.E. Schlechter
24 to farm in the EAA?
25 A I don't believe W.E. Schlechter & Sons has to
35
1 have any permits to farm in the EAA.
2 Q Does W.E. Schlechter have any permits?
3 A They have to have a license, I think, by the
4 state of Florida, but I don't think it designates the EAA.
5 Q Does W.E. Schlechter have any water management
6 for water related permits?
7 A No, the land they own is in the 298 District.
8 The 298 District might have it which would take care of the
9 land they own.
10 Q And the 298 District, the permits they have,
11 would that include any consumptive use permits or service
12 water permits?
13 A I am not sure.
14 Q W.E. Schlechter & Sons itself has no service
15 water management permit; is that correct?
16 A Right.
17 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons applied for permits
18 under the new BMP Rule?
19 A No.
20 Q Why?
21 A They were not required to.
22 Q Why are they not required to?
23 A As I understand the Rule the landowner is
24 required, and the land they own is covered by 298 District.
25 Q Is it correct to the extent, the land that
36
1 W.E. Schlechter & Sons farms requires a permit under that
2 new BMP Rule or somebody else applying for a permit; is
3 that correct?
4 A Right.
5 Q Do you know if such a permit has been applied
6 for?
7 A Yes, it has been applied for.
8 Q Who made the application?
9 A I did.
10 Q You did?
11 A I personally
12 Q Now, we are talking about W.E. Schlechter &
13 Sons Incorporated or John O. Schlechter?
14 A You know that I own land and you know the land
15 that was starred is my land personally and you probably
16 know that I made an application.
17 Q Do you know how much land you own and now I'm
18 talking about, you, John O. Schlechter not, you, W.E.
19 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated?
20 A My wife and myself own 19 hundred and some odd
21 acres and myself as a member of the corporation own another
22 25 -- I mean 640 acres and as an aggregate group we own 25
23 hundred. And I made application to the Water Management
24 under that and I have a consumptive use permit as an
25 individual as a discharge under that previous to that.
37
1 Q Do you lease land to W.E. Schlechter & Sons?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How much land do you lease them?
4 A It varies, as I told you earlier, as I rotate
5 cane in and around. We will be moving to implement a
6 certain amount of BMP to both of our mutual advantages.
7 Q When you applied for a permit under the new
8 BMP Rule, did you do the early base on options?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What is your understanding of how the early
11 base on options works?
12 A At 25 percent deduction after monitoring the
13 first year it has to be 96. I don't know if it's the first
14 or the lateral or whatever.
15 Q Do you have any consultants help you prepare
16 that application?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you do it yourself?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And other than W.E. Schlechter & Sons is your
21 application under the new BMP Rule made in conjunction with
22 any other land owners or farmers?
23 A Who are we talking about now?
24 Q I'm talking about the permits that you applied
25 for?
38
1 A Which, you as an individual or as a
2 corporation?
3 Q When I say, you, I'd like to refer to either
4 you or the corporation unless that's confusing.
5 A You know, it is and there is several other
6 things. I am here to be deposed on W.E. Schlechter. I am
7 not being argumentative, but --
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I think he answered the question
9 before that that there was more than one entity. I
10 don't understand the question either.
11 Q (By Mr. Garver) My question, I guess, is
12 related to you since you made the permits?
13 A As an individual?
14 Q Right.
15 A If you read my application to the Water
16 Management District, I have a supporting document that on
17 my application the back section is observed by A.J.
18 Sullivan which I am part owner in and they subordinated it
19 there on the back. So, that corporation and me as an
20 individual have went together to make one application for a
21 master permit.
22 Q Are you a part owner of or an owner of any
23 other corporations besides the one you just mentioned.
24 What was the name of that one again?
25 MR. HOFFMAN: I will object. I instruct the
39
1 witness not to answer about any other work in the
2 corporations he might own. I don't think that is
3 relative to anything. I was letting him answer. To
4 ask him broad questions of what he owns or any
5 corporations he has an interest in that is beyond
6 whether this Swim Plan is a valid document or not.
7 I will instruct the witness not to answer. I have
8 no idea what his answer would be. It's way beyond.
9 MR. GARVER: You're instructing him not to
10 answer?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: I will make it very straight.
12 You asked him a broad question what other
13 corporations does he have any interest in? I don't
14 know, we can read it back and I instruct the witness
15 not to answer that. You have no interest in any
16 businesses that he owns, in general, in the world.
17 It's not relevant to this case and so I instruct him
18 not to answer the question. I didn't think whatever
19 else he owns in the world is a matter before this
20 tribunal.
21 MR. GARVER: Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Schlechter said
22 right at the beginning of the deposition that he was
23 primarily here to testify regarding the economic
24 hardships that would result from the Swim Plan. I
25 believe that creates quite a wide range of
40
1 relevance. I think your instruction is uncalled for
2 given the nature of Mr. Schlechter's proposed
3 testimony.
4 MR. HOFFMAN: I will give you one more comment
5 W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated is petitioner in
6 the case. He was an officer with W.E. Schlechter &
7 Sons Incorporated. What you asked him, what he was
8 going to testify to, he doesn't know that because he
9 and I didn't go over that. When you say economics,
10 I am sure we can talk about the matters we talked in
11 briefs and matters dealing with the spending of tax
12 buyers money which would be his money. The
13 potential of taking his property or taking
14 properties so they couldn't use it those kind of
15 economic things, you didn't get into those and those
16 are the economic things we are talking about. What
17 corporations he has an interest in has no bearing on
18 W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated. My statement
19 stands. We can take it to the hearing officer and
20 decide. I'm telling you that question is too broad
21 and has nothing to do with why we are here. If you
22 think it does then fine we will argue it in brief.
23 You're a great guy and I have no problem with you I
24 just --
25 MR. GARVER: I just wanted to get all those
41
1 words on the record.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: I have more words, I will put in
3 writing. I am a formal journalist.
4 MR. GARVER: Are we ready to take a short
5 break?
6 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
7 MR. GARVER: Back on the record.
8 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, you were
9 describing earlier the diaster that occurred back in 1963
10 or 4 and you lost a crop to flooding. Can you describe to
11 me exactly what happened during that flood that caused the
12 crop to be lost?
13 A A hurricane passed over and passed something
14 like -- it was a small hurricane from the west - the
15 southwest to the northeast and dropped about four inches of
16 rain. I had a polrain (phonetic) of radishes and four
17 inches of rain is more than they could swallow. Having
18 just started out on my own, I didn't have the financial
19 resource to liquidate it. I sold the land and did whatever
20 had to be done.
21 Q Did you do anything to try and get the water
22 off of your crops when the hurricane was coming over?
23 A All that I was allowed to do, you know, the
24 discharge you're only allowed to discharge one acre per 24
25 hour period and you have four acre inches that means that
42
1 surplus is standing on the top of the ground, under
2 management.
3 Q Do you know or have you heard that that storm
4 described in terms of its frequency?
5 A No, sir, but it was a small storm in how they
6 were rating it. I don't think you appreciate the fact that
7 the thunderstorms can drop four or five inches over a small
8 area in a relative short period of time. Three years ago
9 we were going through a drought and I had a two to three
10 weeks apart with two inches of rain, that will annihilate
11 you.
12 Q That was another storm or something back in
13 January 1991; isn't that right?
14 A January of '91, oh, yeah. Yeah, a frontal of
15 water. But that was large I'm talking about smaller. I'm
16 talking about something that would be a like two or three
17 mile square deal.
18 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons ever lost a crop to
19 flooding other than back in 1963?
20 A Sure. If you farm, you will lose it to the
21 water.
22 Q How often has that happened?
23 A Less often. In other words, I survived so it
24 has happened less often then I succeeded.
25 Q Do you know about how many floods you have had
43
1 that cause you to lose a crop?
2 A I don't know how familiar you are with the
3 area, but it's not unusual to get a couple of inches of
4 rain over a very short period of time, and I mean it's not
5 something that would be charted or anything, but the
6 thunderstorms will kick out a bunch of water and, I mean,
7 if you get flooded you get flooded.
8 Q Do you know how much rain you would have to
9 get per hour before you get flooding that will cause crop
10 damage?
11 A We generally can handle a couple inches.
12 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons lost a crop due to
13 drought conditions?
14 A No.
15 Q I would like you to describe if you could how
16 water is managed on the farm which W.E. Schlechter & Sons
17 farms in terms of pumps and the size of the acre you are
18 serving?
19 A The land that's owned by W.E. Schlechter &
20 Sons --
21 Q When you say owned or leased?
22 A That's owned by W.E. Schlechter & Sons is 298
23 District and that's the water elevation that is leased by
24 W.E. Schlechter & Sons. Heretofore, should it start
25 raining we kick the water out. Within the last couple of
44
1 years we were striving to move the water around the inside.
2 Inside of our pumping capabilities we have three miles or
3 four miles of main laterals with another 8 or 10 miles of
4 supporting laterals and we are putting pumpings on half
5 sections to control the water independently.
6 Q So, if I understand you correctly, you're
7 adding pumpings to your Water Management System to enable
8 you to control the water better?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q How many pumps will you be adding?
11 A I really don't know the total. We are making
12 the pumps portable and so it might be two or three or four
13 I just don't know. That's one of the things we are working
14 with IFIS on to see what we need to do.
15 Q At the present time, what's the smallest unit
16 of land in size that you use for water management?
17 A What do you mean?
18 Q What size area would the last pump in the
19 chain of pumps serve in terms of moving water on and off?
20 A As small as a block for planting or
21 transplanting or something where you would elevate the
22 water in a lateral to pump out. We have some overhead
23 irrigation, we can put water on the top of the ground so if
24 we want to raise the water in a lateral, you have a 20 inch
25 block would be the smallest way you have created an
45
1 artificial field.
2 Q I think that's what I meant. Do you manage
3 the water differently for different crops?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What would be some of those differences?
6 A As I just enumerated, we elevate the water
7 when we are trying to plant so we can get germination, and
8 once we get germination we drop the water down, and when we
9 get near harvest we drop the water even lower than we need
10 to.
11 Q Does that sequence of lowering the water table
12 apply to any crop that you grow?
13 A It probably applies to all of them. I mean
14 there would be the normal thing that depending on the
15 characteristics of the weather. The reverse of it could be
16 true at this time of the year when it's raining every day
17 you're pumping. When it's dry you're elevating. You know,
18 the best place to get a crop is go to the grocery store,
19 but if you get outside the grocery store you have to
20 control some of the environment.
21 Q How do you gauge the water table elevation on
22 your fields?
23 A By guessing and by-goly, I suppose.
24 Q Do you have any water table elevation
25 monitors?
46
1 A Generally, the rock is relatively the same
2 elevation. I don't know if you are familiar with our area,
3 but we have a limestone rock area then we have muck on top
4 of it and elevation would generally be the same if you were
5 down to the rock and you were getting maximized drainings,
6 and then you eyeball it and that's what I get paid for, I
7 guess, to make that determination through experience, color
8 of the dirt, and this type of thing.
9 Q What types of things other than color of the
10 dirt would you look at to try to decide that?
11 A The response to the plants.
12 Q What in particular do you look in terms of the
13 response of the plants to decide whether you are going to
14 raise the water table or lower it?
15 A The age of the plant, the color of the plant,
16 the position of the plant. Again, I'm talking in an area
17 that I don't have the qualifications to talk specifically,
18 but I rely on my experience and those are the criterias
19 that I use.
20 Q How often would you go out to a field and look
21 at the crop and look at the soil to decide?
22 A Daily.
23 Q So, you make daily adjustments in the water
24 level if necessary; is that correct?
25 A If necessary.
47
1 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons retain any of
2 their drainage water it has on any of the fields or make
3 arrangements for use on other types of fields?
4 A You probably don't want to hear that. In the
5 infinite wisdom of some of these people in the Water
6 Management decided there is too much evaporation in the
7 summertime. When we are trying to flood, they said you
8 can't flood you have to pump it off. I guess, we're yet to
9 determine how much we are gonna retain. We are operating
10 under the situation we will retain however much we can. We
11 don't know how much we can retain.
12 Q You feel like the Water Management District is
13 telling you conflicting things?
14 A Let's be honest, they didn't know what they
15 were talking about. We had a chairman fly over all and say
16 hey all this water is bad, yakity, yakity, yak. It didn't
17 cost them anything, it cost me some money.
18 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated do
19 any water quality monitoring at the time?
20 A W.E. Schlechter & Sons does no water quality
21 monitoring.
22 Q Is there any water quality monitoring that's
23 done in connection with the land that W.E. Schlechter &
24 Sons farms?
25 A You bet.
48
1 Q What type of water quality monitoring is done
2 on those fields?
3 A That is made to comply with a Swim Rule, I
4 believe, it is and for the early base line. Both the
5 calibration and discharge of water and the nutrient
6 discharge is my understanding. And we were running both
7 flow portionally and time portionally.
8 Q Who's doing that monitoring?
9 A IFIS is doing one, and the Co-op has a
10 contract to do the other.
11 Q Do you know who the Co-op's contract is with?
12 A They are doing it themselves. I don't know
13 who they contracted with. They were doing the lateral and
14 physical parameters, but you have that information with
15 water management it's all in that application.
16 Q I am just asking if you know.
17 A No.
18 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons changed any of its
19 agricultural practices or water management practices for
20 water quality reasons in the last four years?
21 A Yes, sir, they are enumerated in that
22 application also, but we've moved towards the retaining of
23 water, the elevation of the water, the passing through of
24 the water, and the releasing of the water. I don't think
25 you appreciate the fact that if your whole life was out on
49
1 that farm and it started raining and you would pump. I
2 know you're from a city and you don't understand that, but
3 there is no other repository in the assets that I have,
4 other than, what's growing out there. When it starts
5 raining heretofore I discharge water. Now, I guess I will
6 be better educated when I discharge water. It might not be
7 economically, but that remains to be seen.
8 Q Are you or have you ever been an officer with
9 the Florida Fruit and Vegetable Association?
10 A W.E. Schlechter & Sons has never been an
11 officer. Now, where do we go from there? In my capacity
12 with W.E. Schlechter & Sons, I have never been.
13 Q Have you yourself?
14 A As an individual in conjunction with another
15 corporation, I have been officer in and I am not sure what
16 their relation -- Again, we are talking about nothing that
17 has pertinency to this. I'm not hiding it, I was chairman
18 of the celery - Florida Celery Committee for several years,
19 I think.
20 Q Were you either on behalf of yourself or
21 another entity every an officer on any other agricultural
22 organization?
23 A CARE which is an affiliate that it's
24 instituted in this suit, I think, I am chairman.
25 Q What is that organization?
50
1 A CARE, Concerned Agricultural Reserve -- or
2 whatever the acronym name is. CARE, and it's the vegetable
3 growers in the Everglades and trying to implement their
4 position in compliance with whatever is coming out of this.
5 Q What impact do you believe or implementation
6 of Everglades Swim Plan will have on W.E. Schlechter & Sons
7 Inc?
8 A From the worse to the best. From the worse,
9 they'll put us out of business. I mean, you have heard
10 some of those babbling idiots. Now, you know as to say
11 this is what they say I think you read the economic study
12 and you have seen their hypothetical situation. You know,
13 we carry a certain tax load and it's heavy and if you
14 triple that tax load which would amount to it would put you
15 in a position you would not make a living.
16 Q You said that is the worse; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you said worse to the best. What would be
19 the best?
20 A The best is some reasonable application to
21 monitoring and controlling and meet the objects, but I
22 think that this thing is so politically motivated that they
23 don't know what their objects are. They have depicted big
24 sugar as horrible as it is to have money and it's a
25 necessity in a capitalistic society to have money, but yet
51
1 they kick them as it is some disease that they have. So,
2 any application of that is, you know, I don't mind you
3 kicking them, but let me alone.
4 Q Your petition challenging the Swim Plan states
5 that the use of stormwater treatment areas to achieve
6 environment protection goals almost require use of your
7 real property. Do you agree with that statement?
8 A Yes, I believe so.
9 Q In what way do you believe using STAs would
10 require use of your property?
11 A Where are they gonna build the STAs?
12 Q Will the STAs as you understand them be built
13 in areas where W.E. Schlechter & Sons Inc. is farmed?
14 A If they're built where they are designed now
15 they will not be, but if I can't reach the 25 percent
16 reduction I will have to retain the water which by its very
17 nature would require taking out of production some of our
18 land, yes.
19 Q At the present time, do you have land that's
20 not in production?
21 A No.
22 Q The land that you lease or own for farming is
23 used a hundred percent other than drains and canals and
24 levies?
25 A Every acre that I own or that W.E. Schlechter
52
1 leases produces a cane crop. It produces at least one and
2 generally two crops and sometimes three crops. You know, I
3 don't mean to be privy, but we have to make a living, you
4 know, and that doesn't seem to be a valid point. In my
5 position, it's a necessity.
6 Q How much of the property that you want to
7 lease do you believe you will have to take out of
8 production at this one?
9 A I don't know because there are so many
10 variables. When they talk about land in charging one
11 hundred dollars an acre and I can't rent land for one
12 hundred dollars an acre this is almost one hundred percent
13 of taking of land, in my opinion.
14 Q How many employees does W.E. Schlechter have?
15 A Year round or sporadic? We are a small
16 agricultural crop that use harvesting labor that drives our
17 payroll up, but I would think we would have 15 employees
18 year round and our payroll is over one million dollars in a
19 year with harvesting and everything. So, somewhere between
20 that if that helps.
21 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons participate in any
22 federal programs, support programs, or other programs?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And this gets into
24 an area that the hearing officer said that is not
25 part of this case. Whether they get into support
53
1 programs or not I instruct the witness not to answer
2 and take it to the hearing officer to see whether
3 it's an appropriate question or not.
4 Q (By Mr. Garver) Do you provide any information
5 regarding operations at W.E. Schlechter to the Department
6 of Agriculture?
7 A Land use, I think, we do.
8 Q What type of land use information do you
9 provide?
10 A I think ASC has its crop production in grains
11 and cane.
12 Q Just so I understand this correctly. You
13 provide information on the land use that you use for grain
14 and sugar cane production; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is there any other particular information that
17 you provide to the Agricultural Department?
18 A There is some statistical, but I'm not sure.
19 And most of it doesn't say by law so I throw it in the
20 garage. I'm not a corporate person.
21 Q In other words, the Department of Agriculture
22 sometimes asks for information that you would only give
23 voluntarily, in that case, you don't?
24 A I don't give voluntarily.
25 Q The land use information that you mention
54
1 that's required; is that correct?
2 A There is a hidden implementation, yes.
3 Q What's the hidden implementation?
4 A At some future date.
5 Q At some future date what?
6 A The information could be pertinent. I don't
7 know what it means. I told you I'm not a lawyer. You
8 asked why, and I told you why that's it.
9 Q So, to understand, the US Agriculture didn't
10 require information on crop production or other
11 information; is that correct?
12 A I think my understanding is that in
13 conjunction with an application to use their programs, they
14 require a determination I have not used it, but yes I
15 comply because at some future date I may want to use it.
16 It's very foolish now to let them pay you and turn around
17 and pay taxes back on all your swapping money. So, I just
18 do it.
19 Q Your partition contains 85 allegedly disputed
20 issues in fact, are you familiar with those?
21 A Not verbatim.
22 Q I am not going to go through all 85 of these.
23 There are a few that I want to ask you some questions
24 about. One issue your partition identifies is whether
25 hydroperiod is the primary source of vegetative changes
55
1 purportedly identified in the Park, EPA and the Refuge by
2 the Plan. Do you have any beliefs or knowledge regarding
3 that issue?
4 A I think the hydroperiods are a significant
5 part of it, and from my advantage point, they are all of
6 it. It is a prejudice point of view, but I don't know and
7 I don't think the reverse no, sir.
8 Q Why do you believe that hydroperiod is all the
9 problem?
10 A Apparently, Dr. Richardson makes it a very,
11 very significant part of it, and I think the implementation
12 is why did the hydroperiod if we are not supposed to have
13 to pay it why is the hydroperiod itself a problem. So, if
14 it wants to be done say it's hydroperiod and you all pay
15 for it.
16 Q So, you would rely primarily on
17 Dr. Richardson's studies; is that correct?
18 A I think Dr. Richardson has voiced a position
19 that implies that it has a substantial part of effect, yes.
20 Q Have you read any of Dr. Richardson's studies?
21 A I'm also on the EPD Board, what do you think?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Answer his question.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 Q (By Mr. Garver) What is the EPD?
25 A Everglades Protection District.
56
1 Q And you're a board member of EPD?
2 A Yes, a supervisor.
3 Q What does the EPD do?
4 A Collected taxes to help you all build your ENR
5 Project.
6 Q What else does EPD do?
7 A It does research, I think, it's an
8 implementation, legislative implementation.
9 Q Did the EPD also hire Dr. Richardson to do
10 study of the Everglades?
11 A They funded him, yes.
12 Q Another issue that you identify in the
13 partition is whether there is environmental damage in or
14 threatening the Park, EPA or the Refuge as a result of
15 nutrient levels in surface water flowing into those areas
16 from the EAA?
17 A You bet your sweetie I have an opinion.
18 Q What is that opinion?
19 A That it hasn't. I looked at the report that
20 was given to the Water Management District and it said for
21 the past year there was no phosphorus within their criteria
22 of established level year after year after year and we are
23 specifically talking about phosphorus. It makes me very
24 unhappy.
25 Q What report in particular?
57
1 A Every month the managers at the water
2 department get an analysis of what went on and it makes a
3 statement and it enumerates several items and phosphorus is
4 one of them. It enumerates those that violate them in the
5 preceding months.
6 Q Another issue you identified is whether the
7 vegetative changes the Plan finds are caused by the
8 introduction of nutrients from the EAA. Do you have an
9 opinion with respect to that?
10 A I do not think that there is significant
11 information to support contention, right. I think it is a
12 political - it's mainly motivated for politicians. There
13 is no Florida scientist only. There is nobody doing work
14 in the EAA except Dr. Richardson.
15 Q What do you believe is the political
16 motivation behind those findings?
17 A To perpetuate a political career.
18 Q Whose political career?
19 A The attorney general.
20 Q U.S. Attorney Dexter Layton?
21 A U.S. Attorney or acting U.S. Attorney.
22 Q Was it Dexter Layton?
23 A You bet your sweetie.
24 Q At the present time in the capacity as U.S.
25 Attorney?
58
1 A I don't think so.
2 Q Now, that Dexter Layton is no longer in that
3 capacity you believe that the findings in the Swim Plan are
4 politically motivated still?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Excuse me, as they say on
6 television counsel you can make these things go on
7 for days. I think, if you are trying to increase
8 our attorney fees that may be one thing. You asked
9 the questions about that and brought it. I think
10 that we are off field when you are asking a serious
11 of questions about Dexter Layton whether this
12 witness likes him or dislikes him. I don't
13 understand the point of it and I object. You can
14 answer the question, but I think we are wasting our
15 money here.
16 MR. GARVER: For clarification, I'm asking
17 follow up questions. I realize Mr. Schlechter isn't
18 an expert.
19 THE WITNESS: I am not an expert on anything.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: If he makes you one maybe you
21 will be. Whether Dexter Layton is a jerk or not a
22 jerk or an officer or not an officer I agree with
23 that more strongly then Mr. Schlechter. My
24 objection -- I am taking time too, so I will quit.
25 Q (By Mr. Garver) My question was whether you
59
1 still believe that the Swim Plan is politically motivated?
2 A Yes, sure.
3 Q What other than the role of Dexter Layton
4 makes you believe that the Swim Plan is politically
5 motivated?
6 A The areas that it has taken to solve it.
7 There is no peculation. If they were serious about
8 straightening them out, they could be straightened out.
9 Q How could they be straightened out?
10 A Try to straighten them out instead of paying
11 taxes on somebody that is almost Hercules.
12 Q How without putting that strain on other
13 people?
14 A For nothing I am going to tell you this, they
15 spend five million dollars on the ER Project to build a
16 canal and had a pump sitting within a half mile. Whatever
17 those pumps do is artificial. To move that water they
18 build the canal one half mile over. They would have saved
19 five million dollars. Do you think they were serious about
20 moving water time after time after time. You see that I
21 mean they are just not serious.
22 Q Getting back to what we were talking about.
23 I'm just understanding your answer to be that they could --
24 A They could reach what they want to reach
25 realistic, if they want to. They didn't want to.
60
1 Q I'm trying to understand how you believe that
2 problem could be fixed. I am just trying to understand if
3 they were serious about straightening it out how you
4 believe doing it?
5 A Use some resources in the water watchment
6 areas.
7 Q In the water conservation areas?
8 A Sure.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to pose another
10 objection. The Swim Plan says that STAs are
11 required. The word "required "is used. There is no
12 flexibility about the Swim Plan unless the Justice
13 Department is now telling us that there are
14 alternatives to the Swim Plan which are not in it.
15 This is totally irrelevant asking this gentleman
16 what thoughts he might have as to alternatives and I
17 just object to this continual wasting of time trying
18 to delay this deposition and dragging it on and
19 cost. I think it's planned. I think it's
20 definitely planned to make this thing last long as
21 possible. I think you are trying to force us out of
22 the case. I think that's what I think, sir, and I
23 am not kidding. I don't find you funny any more. I
24 think you need to proceed and get this done and stop
25 jerking my client.
61
1 MR. GARVER: You could believe whatever you
2 want.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: I want you to know whoever told
4 you to do this -- Maybe we can find out. Go ahead.
5 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, another issue
6 whether it is feasible to collect and treat stormwater from
7 the EAA to the levels "required" by the Plan to better than
8 rainfall purity. Do you have any opinions with respect to
9 that?
10 A I don't think any rational person would expect
11 it.
12 Q Another issue identified in the in your
13 partition is whether the programs "required" by the Plan
14 will result in adverse environmental impacts to other
15 areas. Do you have an opinion with respect to that?
16 A No.
17 Q Another issue identified is whether the Water
18 Conservation Area reservoirs may be operated for
19 environmental purposes as required by the Plan and still
20 perform regional flood control and water supply functions
21 necessary to protect the lands in the EAA and other parts
22 of South Florida. Do you have a belief with respect to
23 that area?
24 A As to what position?
25 Q As to what the correct response of that issue
62
1 would be?
2 A I think they are run prejudicial right now. I
3 think they are in fact filtering.
4 Q In what way?
5 A Because water in and because the Everglades
6 National Park is clear.
7 Q Another issue you have identified whether the
8 effects of the urbanized lower east coast is a cause of the
9 environmental conditions the Plan purports to address. Do
10 you of have an opinion or belief with respect to that
11 issue?
12 A I think they're caused, yes.
13 Q What makes you believe they are caused?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Excuse me. Are the next few
15 questions going to be from the petition?
16 MR. GARVER: Yes, they are.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Go ahead and answer that I am
18 going to take a break.
19 THE WITNESS: They are self-evident that they
20 are there. I think I pointed out in one of those
21 flood fields they had 14 inches of rain in Fort
22 Lauderdale and the water went to the water
23 assessment area you know it and I know it.
24 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue you identified
25 is whether the agency's actions and programs "required" by
63
1 the Plan will cause adverse effects on the water supply and
2 flood control in the region. Do you have a belief as to
3 this issue?
4 A Very possibly could, yes.
5 Q What adverse effects do you believe might be
6 caused by the Plan?
7 A That the water would not be available.
8 Q Might not be available for what?
9 A You understand I know nothing about this.
10 I'll be glad to spend the time to talk to you. We are
11 talking about evaluations. When you expose more to
12 evaluations that might not be the case, you know, but I
13 understand that the more water you expose the more you
14 evaporate. I understand it's lost if it evaporates.
15 Q I'm trying to save time by not going through
16 everyone of these issues but W.E. Schlechter is a
17 petitioner here.
18 MR. RUSSELL: If you are asking for
19 speculation or if it's based on something that your
20 experts are going to say short circuit everything,
21 but everything is being said so you might want to do
22 that instead of going into speculation obviously
23 that is.
24 THE WITNESS: I already said --
25 MR. RUSSELL: Answer it that way and short
64
1 circuit it.
2 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue in your
3 partition is whether the EAA drainage waters contain excess
4 nutrients. Do you have a belief with respect to that
5 issue?
6 A Do I have an opinion of whether they contain
7 excess? I don't think they contain excess I think they
8 contain some nutrients.
9 Q Why don't you believe those are excess
10 nutrients?
11 A Who's to determine what's excess?
12 Q Do you believe it's a certain
13 characterization; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Another issue you identified is whether the
16 levels of phosphorus in waters flowing from the EAA are the
17 most immediate water quality concern facing the Everglades
18 system, include the EPA. Do you have a belief with respect
19 to that issue?
20 A I think the jury is out.
21 Q Does that mean that the levels of phosphorus
22 maybe the most immediate it has not been determined yet; is
23 that correct?
24 A It could be. Again, I'm not an expert and I
25 don't know, but the information I have seen has not been
65
1 documented that that is the criteria.
2 Q Again, Mr. Schlechter, I have tried to be
3 selective in what I am going to cover here. So, I don't
4 take up more time then is necessary. Another issue you
5 identified is whether EAA drainage flows directly into the
6 Refuge. Do you have a belief with respect to this issue?
7 A Out of the Wildlife Refuge?
8 Q Yes, that's correct.
9 A I'm sure some of it does. Do I think the
10 Wildlife Refuge is a natural resource? No, I think it's a
11 reservoir.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Try not to volunteer off the top
13 of your head thoughts. We will be here longer.
14 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue you identified
15 whether the water quality within the water conservation
16 areas is adversely affecting the ecology of the park. Do
17 you have a belief with respect to that issue?
18 A The park? I don't think there is any
19 degregation there.
20 Q Another issue is whether the unique flora and
21 fauna of the Park are in need of restoration. Do you have
22 a belief with respect to that issue?
23 A Come see, come sye (phonetic).
24 Q I am not sure I understand what you mean?
25 A I don't think the conditions are out of the
66
1 ordinary which you respect in the environment they were
2 built is my position.
3 Q Another issue you have identified is whether
4 the district may alter or otherwise limit the use of
5 private agricultural lands in order to provide regional
6 environmental filtration function. Do you have a belief
7 with respect to that issue?
8 A I think we discussed that earlier when I told
9 you I might have to retain some water on my land. I guess,
10 that's what that statement is saying.
11 Q I guess what the statement is saying whether
12 that kind of alteration is permissible for the district to
13 do?
14 A I don't think that's in my judgment.
15 Q Mr. Schlechter, when we were speaking earlier
16 you mentioned some comments that you believe that I had
17 made at some of the Water Management District workshops and
18 do you recall that conversation which we just had earlier
19 today?
20 A Yes, we were discussing whether you could fine
21 tune a percentage of phosphorus as much as one percent. I
22 told you I did not think I could or that the industry could
23 or the people could.
24 Q When I made that comment at the workshop, did
25 you voice any concern?
67
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you recall what you said?
3 A Basically I didn't think it existed. I didn't
4 think that degree of technology exists.
5 Q Do you recall at this time any other comments
6 that you made at those workshops?
7 A That is the basic essence of it. We were
8 discussing the implementation of BMP whether BMP could
9 facilitate a reduction. I believe that is what the whole
10 thing was about it has to do with more.
11 Q The BMP that W.E. Schlechter & Sons
12 Incorporated is planning to implement so called BMP as a
13 result of the new BMP Rule; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do believe that implementation of those BMP's
16 will cause an economic hardship?
17 A I explained to you how it could, yes.
18 Q I didn't understand your earlier answer to be
19 applying only to BMP Rule. Is it your belief then that
20 implementation of the BMP rule alone could cause W.E.
21 Schlechter & Sons to go out of business?
22 A There is a possibility, yes.
23 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons done any financial
24 assessments in connection with the permanent application
25 made on the BMP Rule?
68
1 A No.
2 Q Are you aware of any financial assessments at
3 all made with respect to farming in the EAA as going to the
4 economic hardships from the BMP Rule?
5 A No.
6 MR. GARVER: I will state for the record here
7 that I believe the United States has been quite
8 accommodating to Mr. Hoffman in agreeing to do these
9 depositions sequentially. In no way are we
10 attempting to drag out these depositions or ask any
11 questions that we believe to be irrelevant or
12 unnecessary, given that Mr. Hoffman has instructed
13 the witness on at least one or two occasions during
14 this deposition not to answer questions.
15 I have no further questions at this time, but
16 I reserve my right to continue this deposition.
17 MR. RUSSELL: I object to continuation of the
18 deposition. The depo has been scheduled, you asked
19 questions, the area that you try to delve into has
20 already been heard by the hearing officer. The
21 hearing officer in fact stated at that time that
22 economic issues and the type of information you're
23 trying to get out of him have nothing to do with the
24 Swim Challenge and at such time they do we will
25 entertain a motion at that time that has not been
69
1 done by the U.S. This deposition should be
2 concluded.
3 MR. GARVER: I suppose your objection is
4 noted.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: For the record, since I'm his
6 lawyer I should state a similar objection and I mean
7 on the basis that there is no need to continue the
8 deposition. If the people taking depositions would
9 like to move to compel on an issue that I did
10 instruct my client not to answer of course that
11 would be something that could be brought before the
12 hearing officer by motion. I object to a broad
13 continuing of the objection. I think that you did
14 culture your statement in that request. The record
15 might reflect, but I want to make my objection.
16 MR. GARVER: I have no further questions at
17 this time.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: You have a right to read this
19 deposition. In this case, it might be worth reading
20 to see that there isn't any problem.
21 THE WITNESS: Read.
22 (Thereupon, the deposition was concluded at
23 11:30 o'clock p.m.)
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1 _______________________________
Witness.
2
3 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME THIS DAY
4 OF 1992.
5 __________________________________
Notary Public in and for the State
6 of Florida at Large.
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1 STATE OF FLORIDA )
:SS
2 COUNTY OF BROWARD )
3 I, Brenda Weinerth, a Shorthand Reporter and
4 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, do
5 hereby certify that I reported the deposition of JOHN O.
6 SCHLECHTER, a witness called by the Plaintiff in the
7 above-styled cause; that the witness was duly sworn by me
8 to tell the whole truth; that the foregoing pages, numbered
9 1 to 71, inclusive, constitute a true record of the
10 deposition of said witness as stenographically recorded by
11 me; and that this transcript was prepared under my
12 supervision.
13 I further certify that I am not an attorney or
14 counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee
15 of any attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor
16 financially interested in the action.
17 WITNESS my hand and official seal in the City of
18 Fort Lauderdale, County of BROWARD, State of Florida, this
19 20th day of November 1992.
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____________________________________________
21 Brenda Weinerth
Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public,
22 State of Florida at Large
My Commission Expires: October 31, 1995
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